Readathon - Secret Mountain and Secret of Killimooin

[Liam]

not convinced!! Nice idea but this could be said of any two consecutive books!

How many two consecutive books would you find the plot of the second clearly stated in the first? I personally would not expect to find another like these two. I think I was just lucky.
How often can it be said that the real world inspiration for the setting in one book finds its way into the subsequent book - Kilimanjaro to Killimooin?

[Lucky Star]

Except I don't believe this was the case, as most of Enid's personal archive still survives.

Really? I understood that just a couple of workbooks survived. Do you know where the archive is located and who controls it nowadays?

[Liam]

I find some of your conclusions, Liam, somewhat far-fetched.

That’s quite understandable, Daisy. And I would not put my foot down on any of them. But I do feel that the basic idea is pretty reasonable. And that idea is that Kilimanjaro is the setting for The Secret Mountain. And on top of that is the fact that the plot of the subsequent book, The Secret of Killimooin, is clearly stated in The Secret Mountain. When we put these two together, and find a very unusual - clearly coined - name like killimooin, I think it’s quite reasonable to see a connection in the name Kilimanjaro and its nickname as “moon mountain”. As for the other parallels I draw, yes, some are clearly out there. But not really when you accept my premise, that Killimooin takes its core plot and setting from Mountain. You then simply try to figure out how all the other elements are related to one another - near or far.

[Rob Houghton]

Except I don't believe this was the case, as most of Enid's personal archive still survives.

Really? I understood that just a couple of workbooks survived. Do you know where the archive is located and who controls it nowadays?

I was under the impression that quite a lot survives...more than has been hinted in this thread, anyway. Maybe I'm wrong!

Actually I was going by something Tony said earlier. I thought it was in this thread, but now it has disappeared - so maybe I'm mistaken.

[Rob Houghton]

not convinced!! Nice idea but this could be said of any two consecutive books!

How many two consecutive books would you find the plot of the second clearly stated in the first? I personally would not expect to find another like these two. I think I was just lucky.
How often can it be said that the real world inspiration for the setting in one book finds its way into the subsequent book - Kilimanjaro to Killimooin?

What I really meant was, it's easy to draw conclusions between any two consecutive books if you look hard enough. I wasn't entirely convinced that the points you quote are really 'evidence' that the plot of the second story is 'clearly stated' in the first.

A year ago I read all the Famous Fives in order - and discovered that there were elements discussed in one book that were often developed into a plot in the following book. This happened in nearly all of the Famous Five books - although I don't think anyone could claim this was intentional. I was reading 'The Sea of Adventure' today and Bill mentioned that he thought the crooks he was hiding from had gone to Wales...and sure enough, the next book, Mountain of Adventure is set in Wales.

I'm surprised about the Kilimanjaro setting...I always presumed the Secret Mountain was based on Table mountain in South Africa...?

[Liam]

Parallels can be drawn not just between consecutive books, but between any two books period. You were not convinced by my example, and yet you provide as counterargument an example (from the Adventure series) that is expanded much less than my example. I never said anything about EB’s intention, but that the subsequent book draws heavily from the preceding one. I would love to see you draw the parallels between Sea and Mountain. A pity you didn’t provide an example from the numerous ones you say there is in the FF series.

Table Mountain is actually a good counterargument. But the climate and vegetation are not quite there. It does not seem to be heavily forested - it seems to be a denuded mountain - actually sandstone - and in the suburbs of Cape Town, and on the coast. Quite a lot going against it. But I suppose it could have been an inspiration nonetheless.

I would also add that the colonial heritage of South Africa is not exotic enough to fit the portrayal of the Mountain Folk.

[Rob Houghton]

Enid Blyton probably had a very generic impression of 'Africa' - I'm sure she was inspired by Table Mountain - or at least the original illustrator, Harry Rountree was.

I can't think, offhand, about the parallels used in the Famous Five series - there were plenty - but I'm not saying they were intentional - maybe they were, maybe not - it was just an impression I got while reading them in order.

I can't draw a parallel between 'Sea' and 'Mountain' because I don't think there are any - only one mention of Bills enemies hiding out in Wales. They aren't the same enemy as the baddies in Mountain of Adventure, of course, and the plots aren't similar in any way.

I was merely using these observations to show that parallels can be drawn between many books if we choose to look for them.

Over the years I have put forward a number of theories regards plot lines and themes in Enid's books. They can be read in my many articles in The Journal.

Recently I drew parallels between 'The Family At Redroofs' and 'The Railway Children'. I put forward the idea that in some ways Blyton, in The Family At Redroofs, seemed to be writing a book that followed the general plot structure of the earlier book, and it does indeed share some strong similarities - but these will always be theories. We will never know for certain.

[Anita Bensoussane]

Although I agree with Daisy that some of your parallels are a bit far-fetched, Liam - e.g. Mafumu's uncle and the old goat; the fruit and the flute; the two trees; the sunglasses and Beowald's blindness (incidentally, wasn't it aviator goggles rather than sunglasses?) - I do think you're right that Enid Blyton appears to have been thinking ahead to The Secret of Killimooin while writing The Secret Mountain and that that might help explain the name "Killimooin".

The Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves parallel is interesting, and Beowald and his goats do guide the children through mountainous terrain just like Mafumu and his uncle, and lead them to where they can gaze upon the mysterious place to which the children long to go (forest/mountain). Then there's the fear of the strange and fierce folk as you say, Liam; the hair/fur being dyed red; the mountain tunnels and rivers; and the wish expressed by the children to take Beowald to the royal palace/Mafumu to England. Quite a lot of similarities - though some of these themes could be said to be typical of "lost tribe" novels.

[Liam]

Yes, Anita, maybe that first idea was right, that EB did have the idea of “native” robbers occur to her while writing The Secret Mountain, but was prudent enough not to use it then. But it remained with her, and when she came around to writing the next book in the series, that aborted plot idea resurfaced, but quite safe now to use in a European setting. She of course would not have known that she would use the idea for the next book.

So my idea is that she was thinking backward, not forward. In other words, that her inspiration for The Secret of Killimooin was The Secret Mountain, whereas in most of her other books their central idea seems to be quite fresh and unrelated to the immediately preceding one. For example, people have pointed out the similar structure between Five Fall into Adventure and Five Have Plenty of Fun, but the first is #9 in the series while the other is #14, though there is an intermediate book (#11) where the theme of Jo was first reused. EB reused ideas even in the same series, but there was always a lapse of a few books. My point about the Secret series is that there was no lapse between Mountain and killimooin for reusing ideas, and that there was an unusual amount of parallels.

Maybe it was aviator goggles and not sunglasses, but that would not really affect the basic idea, that Mafumu and his uncle’s complexion gets represented as blindness in Killimooin. And why? Because in returning to an idea that first occurred to her in Mountain, EB was using this book as her template. She was in effect writing that first book she wanted to write. But in a different cultural setting, those original elements (for example, dark complexion), gets compromised. In other words, it’s as if you mix black and white, you get grey or brown.

I suppose what I am trying to do is trace the path of EB’s imagination, but I’m basically using Freud’s free association technique. Maybe not very scientific, but there it is. Hopefully interesting, if not factual.

[Rob Houghton]

A pity you didn’t provide an example from the numerous ones you say there is in the FF series.

After a bit of searching through the 'What Book Are You Reading Now?' thread, I found an example - only small examples, but they often do follow through from one book to the next -


"Reading the Fives in chronological order, I've constantly noticed how Enid carries an idea from one book onto the next and often makes a feature of it - for example, the old lady who is ill-treated at the butterfly farm in Billycock Hill, followed by the old lady who's being kept prisoner in Fix, the Welshman Morgan in Fix with an enormous voice, and Grandpa in Finniston Farm who is described as having a loud voice, etc. I haven't looked really carefully, but as I've read through the series I've noticed these echos of characters and situations following on from book to book."

[Liam]

It’s as I had thought, Rob. See how difficult it is to find one parallel. Think how much more difficult it would be to find two, three, four. Whereas with Killimooin and Mountain it is easy to find ten, say.

PARALLELLS
Overseas plane trip, landing on a plain, where there is a lake, and where it is extremely hot, then journeying up into a mountain where it is cooler.

Descending a mountain on rafts.

Meeting a youth that is half naked and barefooted, and lots of attention paid to bare feet.

Red painted body parts - hair and decorative wolf tail.

A temple at the top of a mountain where a lot of the final action takes place.

Giving of gifts hung around necks, and associated with the mouth.

The wish at the end to have the native friend come to live with the children, but deciding this would only make them unhappy.

The baddies disarming the newcomers of their guns - Captain Arnold and Ranni and Pilescu.

Rivers and waterfalls playing major roles.

Guides pointing out the destination but not going along to it.

Extreme fear of the bad guys by the native guides.

Flyovers of the mountains and forest at the end when going home.

Long passages in the mountains from top to bottom, carved, intimately by the Mountain Folk, crudely by the Secret Forest robbers.

Places to rest, hide and eat along the steep climb up the mountain.

They both had extraordinary meteorological events - an eclipse and a violent storm and flash flood - divine intervention, if you will. Both events scared the living daylights out of the Mountain Folk and the Secret Forest robbers. Both events were key to the escape of Jack and the others.

The mist at the end of Killimooin which blots out the moon is akin to the eclipse on the Secret Mountain and which blots out the sun.

The use of spears at the end in both books to overpower, capture and tie up the children and their adult companions.

HALF-PARALLELS
Even the logs across the hole in the ground in the Secret Forest where Ranni and Pilescu are held prisoners, remind me of the golden cage-elevator that ran through the hole in the Secret Mountain. I think of the bars on the cage.

The greeting by Paul’s family when the plane lands, with the strange ritual of kissing the queen’s hand recalls the meeting the day after the plane lands in Africa with Mafumu and his uncle and his uncle’s comical retelling of the capture of Captain and Mrs. Arnold, and Mafumu’s mimicking of his uncle’s actions.

The capture of Ranni and Pilescu at the entrance to both mountains, with Jack just outside observing, and Mafumu and Beowald also not captured, that is in the same relative positions.

Paul being cradled as he sleeps, like Mafumu’s hurt foot being attended to by Ranni and Pilescu, and Paul being carried across and beside rivers; hiding up trees occurs in both books; unbearable heat that takes appetites away; wish to remove clothes because of heat (like the natives Mafumu and Beowald).

The rope ladder that Jack and Mafumu climbed halfway up to avoid being seen, and the roped ladder of humans climbing up inside of Killimooin.

Hip-carried knives play prominent roles at the end - Captain Arnold’s that he throws at the sun, and Beowald’s that he uses to free the captives.

Mafumu feels with his fingers for the tunnel roof to find an entrance into the mountain, and Beowald feeling with his fingers the statue’s ear to find the mechanism to open the entrance to the Secret Forest.

Was Beowald’s blindness the parallel of the eclipse that occurred over the Secret Mountain, and not of Mafumu’s complexion? And that the relationship between Beowald and Mafumu is simply that Beowald is the parallel of Mafumu, like the old goat of Beowald’s being the parallel of Mafumu’s uncle? An eclipse might fit more with Beowald sleeping in the day and walking at night (though how he then took care of his goats which I assume were active during the day, is a mystery!)

The names of the two books reflect their close relationship. Both names refer to mountains - one generic, the other specific. There are forest excursions in both books, in Mountain occurring before the mountain is reached, in Killimooin after the mountain is reached. The forest excursion in Killimooin seems perfunctory, an afterthought, despite as David Cook says in the review in the Cave of Books that the Secret Forest is mentioned more than Killimooin Mountain. Both books are really focused on a mysterious mountain. Why put such emphasis on the forest, yet deliberately refuse to title the book after it? Why was EB so comfortable with writing and titling two similar themed books one after the other?

There is definitely something different about these two books. There are just too many parallels and half-parallels to ignore. They seem to be mirror images of one another.

[Rob Houghton]

Although your parallels are interesting, I fail to be convinced. It's great to see parallels, and very tempting to spot more and more, but it can sometimes become a case of seeing parallels everywhere. Some that you cite could happen in any two books, or are merely similarities due to the characters and situations.

For example - the overseas plane trip - this would be a natural thing, as the children's parents are aviators, and also because Prince Paul has an aeroplane.

Landing on a plain - pretty obvious place to land - it's not likely they would choose to land anywhere more tricky.

Meeting a youth half naked and barefooted. Again - they need a 'guide' to the local terrain - and as they are 'creatures of nature' both characters are likely to be barefooted. There is also a nod to folklore and legend - they are very much traditional native people. Enid had poorer characters going barefoot in many, many books. It was something she regularly did, so the coincidence or parallel isn't particularly striking.

It would also be quite natural for the children to want their new native friend to come and live with them afterwards, but Enid realised this would not be practical, in case she wrote other stories and had to include them, as well as for the cultural reasons.

The baddies disarming the newcomers of their guns is a pretty sensible move on the part of the baddies - again, something I see as being essential to the capture of the goodies. If they didn't disarm them, the plot would have been quite short lived!

Rivers and waterfalls have played large parts in many, many Blyton books. Quite how this can be seen as a parallel I don't know - River of adventure, a river in The Rockingdown Mystery, rivers in many Famous Five books, underground rivers in several books. Waterfalls are great places to hide, have secret tunnels behind, and are spectacular additions to a story to give a sense of place because they conjure up sight and sound for the reader.

The extreme fear of the bad guys by the native guides is also something that happens in a few books -the guide David in Mountain of Adventure is a good example. It's a natural device to create tension in the reader if someone is terrified of an unknown enemy, then the reader will feel a sense of foreboding.

A flyover of the mountain and forest when going home - again - that's going to happen, given the settings. Enid often looked at her setting from on high, or far away, at the end of a book - she did it in several of the Adventure books, and even in books like Mr Galliano's Circus and The Six Bad Boys. This is what I describe as being 'filmic' - the last shot before the film fades out.

The tunnels in the mountain - a device used many times in various books - too many to list.

Obviously when climbing rough terrain the characters need places to rest and eat and hide - these things can hardly be said to be a parallel except in an obvious way - rather like saying 'all Enid's holiday adventures contained picnics.'

I could go on - but I won't. I don't mean to pour cold water on your parallels - these observations are always interesting and fun to speculate on, but often one person sees special significance in things where others might not. I certainly don't think Enid was the type to consciously include all these parallels. If they are there, they are there because she often used them, and it just so happens she used them in two consecutive books in the same series.

I've enjoyed reading your theories though - I can see you've taken a lot of thought and time to draw them up and it's always good to speculate.

[Liam]

Rob, it’s fine to not be convinced.

However, your last argument to me was that you did find parallels in consecutive books of the Famous Five and Adventure series, obviously with the hope that they undermined my position. When I pointed out that those were one-off and thus random compared to what exists in Mountain and Killimooin, and asked for the multitude of parallels that would show pattern, you did not provide them, but instead resorted to an argument of random parallels. The argument was never about random parallels, but those occurring in books next to one another, since the point was to show that one book influenced another.

The internal logic for a particular scene - like a plain being the most appropriate to land a plane - is not the point - this is not an argument in physics, after all. An entirely different scene could have been used. The point is that two such scenes should occur in proximate books.

Again, I have never said that EB was consciously drawing parallels as she wrote Killimooin, but was simply influenced by the setting of the previous book in the series.

I do not see what there is to be convinced or not convinced of. I could just as easily have said that EB’s imagination failed her, and she rehashed ideas from the previous book. We know the Secret series was her first such series. It was only natural if it was not the smoothest for her. People have noted the difference between the first book, The Secret Island, and the next in the series, The Secret of Spiggy Holes. But even that was not the smoothest, in how she tried in the end of it to incorporate Prince Paul (make him backwards compatible, so to speak) by acquainting him with the island. The next book, The Secret Mountain, was pulled off quite flawlessly. But that she should have a hard time coming up with an entirely fresh plotline for the next installment does not reflect negatively on her. The last book, The Secret of Moon Castle, is quite fresh, at least compared to its predecessor, but as you yourself have noted, it was ten years after. Just as EB could have a leap of imagination from The Secret Island to The Secret of Spiggy Holes, so she could have a failure of imagination from the Secret Mountain to The Secret of Killimooin. No one can always bring their A-game.

It is quite fine to throw cold water on my arguments. That is what a counterargument is. If you do not do that, then you have no counterarguments to make! Then you can only agree to disagree. But surely you would not stoop so low as to patronize me and my ideas, now would you?

[Nicko]

Although I agree with Daisy that some of your parallels are a bit far-fetched, Liam - e.g. Mafumu's uncle and the old goat; the fruit and the flute; the two trees; the sunglasses and Beowald's blindness (incidentally, wasn't it aviator goggles rather than sunglasses?) - I do think you're right that Enid Blyton appears to have been thinking ahead to The Secret of Killimooin while writing The Secret Mountain and that that might help explain the name "Killimooin".

The Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves parallel is interesting, and Beowald and his goats do guide the children through mountainous terrain just like Mafumu and his uncle, and lead them to where they can gaze upon the mysterious place to which the children long to go (forest/mountain). Then there's the fear of the strange and fierce folk as you say, Liam; the hair/fur being dyed red; the mountain tunnels and rivers; and the wish expressed by the children to take Beowald to the royal palace/Mafumu to England. Quite a lot of similarities - though some of these themes could be said to be typical of "lost tribe" novels.

I was about to post a comment but realized that Anita had expressed pretty much everything that I wanted to say.

An interest theory put forward by Liam and, while it goes a little bit far in places, I agree that the similarities between these two books are much more pronounced than the similarities in other books that Enid wrote.

[Rob Houghton]

I wasn't trying to prove or disprove anything, or undermine your position, as you suggest. I don't feel I need to do that, because everything you have 'discovered is merely conjecture, and can never be anything else. I

've found similarities in quite a few books - but I don't look on the idea seriously - just a bit of fun and quite interesting. I'm not trying to argue with you except to say that I believe we could all find similarities and parallels in many many books. The books I cited, and examples I mentioned, I used just to show that similarities can be found anywhere. I don't take what I wrote seriously in any way.

I've never been a big fan of dissecting books to the extent you seem to enjoy - too much like being back at college/uni! . I'm afraid I find some of your parallels extremely shaky - I can't pretend otherwise. You seem to be suggesting that Enid deliberately used these parallels, and that's actually what I find hard to believe. But everyone is entitled to their opinion. We had better agree to disagree.