Five Get into Trouble Talking Points

[Wolfgang]

I think Enid made a blooper - the Barnard reference only appeared in one book - Five get into a fix. I think there's a thread about that topic in which it was mentioned that Enid Blyton tried to blame her publisher for that error.

[pete9012S]

That's how I remember it too Wolfgang.

I think in some short stories or standalone books Granny is the one who is the homeowner and has inherited the house, land, property etc.

This never goes on to cause trouble down the line as it is only mentioned in a one-off book.

Trying to remember the book I'm thinking of..
The Treasure Hunters, The Adventure of The Secret Necklace maybe??

[Debbie]

My explanation would be that the surname of the children always was Barnard.

However when they said "We're the Kirrins," it was when they were talking to people who knew Aunt Fanny from pre-married times, plus they come from a place called "Kirrin".

eg In FoFF it's a school friend of George's mother. She might not even have known her married name, so Aunt Fanny might have said to them "say you're from Kirrin/Frances Kirrin's daughter" as easier to remember for the school friend.

[Daisy]

My explanation would be that the surname of the children always was Barnard.

In the first book - Five on a Treasure Island - we are told that the father of the 3 siblings is the brother of Quentin. "What about Quentin?" suddenly said Daddy. Quentin was his brother, the children's uncle. They had only seen him once and ha been rather frightened of him. .... etc. So all the children have the same surname. George claims the box on the wreck with initials H.J.K. was her 3 greats grandfather Henry John Kirrin. I think everyone has assumed all the children were Kirrins until that slip when Enid referred to them in only one book as Barnard.

[Debbie]

My explanation would be that the surname of the children always was Barnard.

In the first book - Five on a Treasure Island - we are told that the father of the 3 siblings is the brother of Quentin. "What about Quentin?" suddenly said Daddy. Quentin was his brother, the children's uncle. They had only seen him once and ha been rather frightened of him. .... etc. So all the children have the same surname. George claims the box on the wreck with initials H.J.K. was her 3 greats grandfather Henry John Kirrin. I think everyone has assumed all the children were Kirrins until that slip when Enid referred to them in only one book as Barnard.

That could be her great grandfather on her mum's side. So her mum's dad's dad's dad's dad. She says "my great grandfather" not "our great grandfather", which would also explain why she knew the stories and the other children didn't, because it wasn't their family.
Also wouldn't the gold ingots have belonged as much to Julian, Dick and Anne's parents as Quentin too if it had been both their ancestors? Yet there's no suggestion they would share. And you also have at the start of FoaTI "Your Aunt Fanny has lived there all her life"


As a child I didn't think their surname was Kirrin, because I can remember feeling rather pleased when I read Fix and thinking that now I knew their surname.

[Courtenay]

I think in some short stories or standalone books Granny is the one who is the homeowner and has inherited the house, land, property etc.

This never goes on to cause trouble down the line as it is only mentioned in a one-off book.

Trying to remember the book I'm thinking of..
The Treasure Hunters, The Adventure of The Secret Necklace maybe??

In The Treasure Hunters, it's Granny who is crying because Greylings Manor, the family's ancestral home, is to be sold because they've run out of money. But it's made clear enough throughout the book that the grandchildren themselves have the surname Greyling, which means it must be their father's and grandfather's surname. Granny seems to know all the family history and take it as her own, but logically, it's only hers by marriage, not ancestry — unless there's some inbreeding going on!!

[dsr]

I think in some short stories or standalone books Granny is the one who is the homeowner and has inherited the house, land, property etc.

This never goes on to cause trouble down the line as it is only mentioned in a one-off book.

Trying to remember the book I'm thinking of..
The Treasure Hunters, The Adventure of The Secret Necklace maybe??

In The Treasure Hunters, it's Granny who is crying because Greylings Manor, the family's ancestral home, is to be sold because they've run out of money. But it's made clear enough throughout the book that the grandchildren themselves have the surname Greyling, which means it must be their father's and grandfather's surname. Granny seems to know all the family history and take it as her own, but logically, it's only hers by marriage, not ancestry — unless there's some inbreeding going on!!

They did say that Queen Mary, George V's wife, was the most regal of all the queens consort is spite of being only marginally royal herself.

Perhaps Granny Greyling was the same - her own ancestry may have been relatively nondescript, but when she married into the Greyling family she embraced Greyling-ness so she became more Greyling-y than the Greylings. If you see what I mean.

Or, like Audrey fforbes-Hamilton, she married her cousin.

[Courtenay]

They did say that Queen Mary, George V's wife, was the most regal of all the queens consort is spite of being only marginally royal herself.

Perhaps Granny Greyling was the same - her own ancestry may have been relatively nondescript, but when she married into the Greyling family she embraced Greyling-ness so she became more Greyling-y than the Greylings. If you see what I mean.

Or, like Audrey fforbes-Hamilton, she married her cousin.

Could be either option — or both...

[Wolfgang]

That could be her great grandfather on her mum's side. So her mum's dad's dad's dad's dad. She says "my great grandfather" not "our great grandfather", which would also explain why she knew the stories and the other children didn't, because it wasn't their family.
Also wouldn't the gold ingots have belonged as much to Julian, Dick and Anne's parents as Quentin too if it had been both their ancestors? Yet there's no suggestion they would share. And you also have at the start of FoaTI "Your Aunt Fanny has lived there all her life"


As a child I didn't think their surname was Kirrin, because I can remember feeling rather pleased when I read Fix and thinking that now I knew their surname.

In "Finniston Farm" they introduce themselves "We're the Kirrins".

[Debbie]

In "Finniston Farm" they introduce themselves "We're the Kirrins".

That's one where Aunt Fanny is an old school friend of the farmer's wife, who presumably knew her as Kirrin at school. So they could have used Kirrin as the name they thought the Finnistons would recognise.
I met one of mum's cousins unexpectedly in a town neither me nor him live. I'd only met him once before, about 20 years previously, but I recognised him because he looked so like my uncle. I said to him "Are you John March*? I'm Susan March's daughter." March being mum's maiden name. I knew that he'd recognise the name more easily as her married surname was far less distinctive.

*Not real names

[Barnard]

Was Aunt Fanny born a Kirrin and then married a Kirrin?

[Daisy]

Was Aunt Fanny born a Kirrin and then married a Kirrin?

That is the premise we took when Dick Kirrin and I wrote "Five Delve into the Past" (available for all to read in the Cave of books). I always assumed all the children were Kirrins and we worked out a nice family tree to explain how it happened.

I do think Enid was a bit vague about names of ancestors. There is an anomaly on "Five go Adventuring Again" regarding the name of the occupants of Kirrin Farmhouse which is Sanders. Mrs Sanders claims that the recipe book the children found belonged to her great-grandmother Alice Mary Sanders, but surely she had married into the Sanders family and would have had another name before that. I think we just have to accept that these references are a careless moment in great stories where these points do not actually make any difference to the plot.

[pete9012S]

I agree Daisy.

That is an excellent example of Mrs. Sanders. Enid seemed to do this quite a bit in her stories.

Perhaps we can explain all these points about the Kirrin etc name as simply a Blytonism!

[John Pickup]

I do think Enid was a bit vague about names of ancestors. There is an anomaly on "Five go Adventuring Again" regarding the name of the occupants of Kirrin Farmhouse which is Sanders. Mrs Sanders claims that the recipe book the children found belonged to her great-grandmother Alice Mary Sanders, but surely she had married into the Sanders family and would have had another name before that. I think we just have to accept that these references are a careless moment in great stories where these points do not actually make any difference to the plot.

Excellently put, Daisy. I have said before that us on here and millions of others have had great delight and enjoyment from reading these stories and with such a prolific output and so many different series, Enid was bound to make the odd mistake. As you say, the error with the Sanders name makes no difference to the plot of a thrilling story. I was fortunate to have read all the major series as a child and these slight anomalies never detracted from the story for me, mostly because I never noticed them.

[Jack400]

In "Finniston Farm" they introduce themselves "We're the Kirrins".

I can't remember who made the booking, but I suppose that if it was Aunt Fanny (or Uncle Quentin) it would have been in the name Kirrin- so introducing themselves with a different surname would have left their host with no idea of who they were, or what they wanted?