All Year Round Winter

[Julie2owlsdene]

Just reading this book after finding it on EBAY. A point which might make a bit of a discussion for the forumites.
Enid writes:- It is a curious thing that water, when frozen into ice, gets bigger and takes up more room than before.
She then goes on to say that if you fill a bottle of water cork it tightly and put it outside during a frosty night, the bottle will be broken in the morning. Which it probably will be.

When I was discussing this with hubby, he says that he knows what she means, but water doesn't get bigger when it freezes, it shrinks. And the reason why the bottle breaks is because the bottle also shrinks. Enid then goes on to say that this is why the pipes burst in winter because of the frozen water in the pipes which expand.
The explanation I had is that when the water freezes in the pipes it shrinks, pressure from the water pipes anyway, forces a bit more water into the pipe. So therefore the frozen pipe has more capacity than it can take, and so when it defrosts the pipe bursts as the water is forced outwards. But we must take on board that water is H2o. Two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen. And it is the oxygen that appears to make the water expand. A chemical reaction.
Does anyone have any other theories on this. And disagree with Enid's explanation.

[Anita Bensoussane]

I'm sure Enid is right that water expands when it is frozen. When I make ice-cubes, the frozen cubes take up more space than the original water.

Anita

[Moonraker]

Yes, water definitely expands when it freezes. I can remember in my days as a milkman, the milk would freeze in the bottles and would burst through the silver cap and stand a good couple of inches out of the top. I don't think I ever saw any glass bottles shrink!

I also remember customers complaining that I had left milk on their doorstops in this condition.

Stupid people.

I have also put some bottles of beer in the freezer to cool them down quickly, forgotten about them and returned to find the bottles had cracked, and frozen beer had spread into the freezer.

Stupid person.

[Julie2owlsdene]

Yes, in my view and prefering the simple explanations, water appears to expand. And I think Enid would teach her youngsters this way rather than getting into the chemistry side of the issue.
What hubby was trying to explain to me, from his university course, is that it's the 0 part of H2o that expands, the oxygen, as with Nigel's frozen bottles of milk, its the 0 part of the water in the milk that expands.
If you had stagnant water that had no oxygen in it, so that the fish couldn't survive etc. Then this would not expand but would remain solid.
Listening to the chemistry of this is totally confusing. But I do understand now what it means.

[Moonraker]

At temperatures where water is a liquid, this has little effect on how the molecules arrange themselves. Think of taking a bowlfull of macaroni and shaking them around - they tend to pack in pretty well.

However, when water begins to freeze, the effects of polarity are considerable. Hydrogens link up with neigbouring oxygen, to form an orderly crystal structure. Generally, this structure is hexagonal, which is why snowflakes have six sides. Think of taking all that macaroni and gluing it together, so that the end of one noodle attaches to the middle of the next.

Once you have glued all of your (hopefully, imaginary) noodles together, you'll notice that they aren't packed as closely together as when they were loose. Water is they same way, which is why it expands, about 10% on average (which, incidentally, is why we see the top tenth of an iceberg).

[Julie2owlsdene]

Well explained and correct Nigel. As I said, I prefer Enid's simple explanation that water does expand. It's hard to find any water that hasn't got the 0 in it, so it is going to expand when frozen.

The chemical side of water is too complicated as I said to hubby.

[Daisy]

If water is H2O then if the 'O' is removed should it still be called water? Surely it is then just hydrogen? All very puzzling Julie!

[Pippa-Stef]

No. Because The Hydrogen stays as Hydrogen, it has to travel around in a pair to fill up it's first electrion shell, which in turn makes it more stable, which is why Water is a perfectly safe compound!

Oh My Gosh! I learnt something in Chemistry this year![falls into a dead faint]

[Moonraker]

Oh My Gosh! I learnt something in Chemistry this year![falls into a dead faint]

Joining you in a state of unconsciousness.....

[Pippa-Stef]

Oh My Gosh! I learnt something in Chemistry this year![falls into a dead faint]

Joining you in a state of unconsciousness.....

[Julie2owlsdene]

No. Because The Hydrogen stays as Hydrogen, it has to travel around in a pair to fill up it's first electrion shell, which in turn makes it more stable, which is why Water is a perfectly safe compound!

Gosh, well impressed Steph. I thought this topic might bring some interesting answers

[Pippa-Stef]

No. Because The Hydrogen stays as Hydrogen, it has to travel around in a pair to fill up it's first electrion shell, which in turn makes it more stable, which is why Water is a perfectly safe compound!

Gosh, well impressed Steph. I thought this topic might bring some interesting answers

[dsr]

Water's the only chemical that does expand when it freezes. All other substances get smaller as they gets colder, but water reaches its highest density at 4 degrees Centigrade. (29 degrees Fahrenheit.) Which is why ice floats - because it's bigger, and hence less dense, that the water underneath.