The name 'Kirrin'

[Daisy]

I guess Sooty was told next to nothing - it sounds as if he didn't have a lot to do with his stepfather if he could help it!
And Uncle Quentin was somewhat ashamed of not seeing the insurance was up to date, so actually woke himself up enough to organise what to do with the children... and given he had had the correspondence with Mr Lenoir, it all works out well!

[pete9012S]

When I was little reading the books, I accepted that all the cousins were 'Kirrins'. I then got on with enjoying the books with gusto.

I,along with many other junior readers was far too young to understand the intricacies of matrimonial genealogy etc.
At this young age I didn't even know what the expressions 'fiance','spouse' 'fraternal' meant,so I merrily enjoyed the books in order until 'Barnard' cropped up and unsettled me.

Happily my 'Kirrin' equilibrium was restored and balanced again as The Kirrins reappeared in the books that followed.

That's the only thing about surnames that ever bothered me reading the books as a child.
They were all Kirrins and it didn't matter to my tiny young mind as long as the adventures kept rolling in!

Analysing it as an adult may prove circular - for as Enid said the critics she was only really interested in were around twelve years old - either in body or mind!!!!

[Daisy]

I think we assume they are Kirrins right from book 1 as George declares that the box on the wreck belonged to her so many great-grandfather Henry John Kirrin. My take on it is that Fanny and George are descended from him and Quentin and the father of her cousins are descended from a brother of his, making Quentin and Fanny third cousins.

[pete9012S]

I tend to think Enid made a mistake with Aunt Fanny having the Kirrin surname/lineage/genealogy and then just ploughed on regardless with it and hoped for the best!

I can easily forgive her for it though as the books are so good!

[pete9012S]

I magine a new famous five film starting with George saying...
" My name is Kirrin.....George Kirrin" and asking for a Ginger
Beer "shaken but not stirred"!

[josepmcb]

I think we assume they are Kirrins right from book 1 as George declares that the box on the wreck belonged to her so many great-grandfather Henry John Kirrin. My take on it is that Fanny and George are descended from him and Quentin and the father of her cousins are descended from a brother of his, making Quentin and Fanny third cousins.

I'm afraid there is nothing in the books that supports this theory. And it's not consistent with book 1 where George states clearly that Kirrin belonged to her mother's family (she doesn't mention anything about her father). We read Julian's father saying that Aunt Fanny has lived in Kirrin all her life, again no mention of Quentin or himself. When told about a place called Kirrin the children don't react the way we should expect if Kirrin was their surname. We can see UQ's attitude with the box as well: he sells it immediately and shows no interest. It was Aunt Fanny who owned Kirrin Island and gave it to George, not Uncle Quentin. It is clear that Aunt Fanny is the one who has family roots in Kirrin, and Quentin is just her husband.

Kirrin surname was a mistake and was not featured until FF 15 and following. I think it's much easier to accept it as a mistake, something not uncommon in EB books, rather than elaborating intrincated theories about third cousins, double cousins or surname changes with really nothing to support them. They are just a way to reconcile the inconsistencies.

[Daisy]

I agree that the children might have been a bit surprised to hear of a place called Kirrin etc. if they did not already know about it, but Fanny would be the heir to the estate as a direct descendant of the Captain who lost his life in the wrecking of his ship. That we do know as George claimed that he was her great-great grandfather. Quentin, a more distant relation, would not necessarily have met Fanny's branch of the family until he was an adult. My grandchildren have second cousins they have never met!

[pete9012S]

I'm going to go by what the author of the books says about the matter:






Interestingly, from Oct 1943 until her death Enid Blyton's married name was:

[Rob Houghton]

I also have many second cousins I have never met!

Regards the name 'Kirrin' its interesting that this name isn't attributed to any living character until book 15. We aren't ever told that George is a Kirrin, or Julian, Dick, or Anne, or Uncle Quentin, for the first 15 books (apparently -- to be honest I'm only going by what's being said on this thread). So we can only presume that Aunt Fanny was a Kirrin before she got married...so therefore it made sense for Enid to call her characters 'Barnard' - even though by then she had mistakenly called them 'Kirrin'.

The fact that Kirrin isn't alluded to as a surname of any living character until 'Secret Trail' is amazing to me. I've only ever gone by what others have said, and I was convinced that 'Kirrin' must have been used earlier than this, so it is a genuine revelation!

[Julie2owlsdene]

Interesting to read this thread, but I have to say that when I read these books as a child, the facts about Kirrin etc didn't really come into my mind. I just loved the books and read them for the mystery and adventure. I never once thought about the 'Kirrin' side of things.

[John Pickup]

I'm with Pete on this one. If Enid says, as she does in her magazine, that the children's surname is Kirrin, then that is good enough for me. I read all the series as a child and, like Julie, I never really bothered about the surname, the adventures were far too thrilling to worry about things like that.

[Tony Summerfield]

Interestingly, from Oct 1943 until her death Enid Blyton's married name was:

I don't think this is actually officially correct. I have her passport which puts her as Mrs E.M. Waters, and normally with anything that wasn't to do with her work she signed as Enid Waters. It is very unusual for her to put the 'Darrell' in.

You can see the passport in the Secret Passage.

[pete9012S]

That's very interesting about her passport Tony . Thank you.
I noticed with interest the name on this wedding invitation too:



The Oxford Index lists a number of names for Enid:

Blyton [married names Pollock, Darrell Waters], Enid Mary (1897–1968), children's writer, was born on 11 August 1897 at 354 Lordship Lane, East Dulwich, London, the eldest child of Thomas Carey Blyton (1870–1920), a salesman, and his wife, Theresa Mary, née Harrison (1874–1950)...

Reference Entry. 2238 words. Illustrated.

http://oxfordindex.oup.com/view/10.1093/ref:odnb/31939" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Agatha Christie used various names for differing purposes too.

[Wolfgang]

To add to the general confusion in German editions, in Treasure Island George's Great-great-great-grandfateher is called Heinrich Johann Kirchner.
In Billycock Hill, the Family name is "Kern".
In Finniston Farm it's "Kirrins".

[Chrissie777]

Wolfgang, maybe the confusion was caused by Bertelsmann using different translators who were not familiar with vol. 1?