Favourite Five Find-Outers book

[70s-child]

In the Malory Towers book, you really get a sense of how damaging those letters can be to someone's self-esteem...
...Those aspects certainly give the appearance of anonymous letters more weight in In the Fifth at Malory Towers.

Your mention of Malory Towers has got me thinking about the nature of the offense in Malory Towers, David. And the more I think about it, I can't see much wrong in what June did. What she did was in effect complain/rant about being bullied and being picked on. That she did it anonymously is frankly irrelevant. Bullying is very serious, complaining anonymously is not. It is just elementary self-preservation. If someone were to come to me to complain about being bullied/harrassed, I would be duty-bound to keep that complaint confidential, but make every effort to stop the bullying/harrassment. The exact same thing applies if someone leaves me an anonymous note. I would also be duty-bound to ensure that there is no retaliation from the bully.
As I mentioned in an earlier post (http://www.enidblytonsociety.co.uk/foru ... 256#p61256" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;), students/clients leave teachers/service-providers anonymous reviews. Far from being "flung into the fire/trash with an exclamation of disgust", the content of these reviews is taken very seriously. If the problem persists, people can lose their jobs. Tough luck if your self esteem is wounded. Such people would have inflicted far worse damage on their victims.

[RainbowJude]

The idea of poison-pen letters is indeed very sinister, and if there was a definite drawn motive to Mrs Moon's actions, the book would be very frightening indeed. Or perhaps that was exactly what Enid wanted to avoid?

Why? Couldn't it have been something as simple as, for example, wanting to get Gladys's job for her niece? That wouldn't have been too frightening, but it would have appeared dishonest and deceitful. Certainly it would have been an act of spite that supports the writing of these spiteful letters rather nicely.

In the Malory Towers book, you really get a sense of how damaging those letters can be to someone's self-esteem... Those aspects certainly give the appearance of anonymous letters more weight in In the Fifth at Malory Towers.

Your mention of Malory Towers has got me thinking about the nature of the offense in Malory Towers, David. And the more I think about it, I can't see much wrong in what June did. What she did was in effect complain/rant about being bullied and being picked on. That she did it anonymously is frankly irrelevant. Bullying is very serious, complaining anonymously is not. It is just elementary self-preservation. If someone were to come to me to complain about being bullied/harrassed, I would be duty-bound to keep that complaint confidential, but make every effort to stop the bullying/harrassment. The exact same thing applies if someone leaves me an anonymous note. I would also be duty-bound to ensure that there is no retaliation from the bully. As I mentioned in an earlier post, students/clients leave teachers/service-providers anonymous reviews. Far from being "flung into the fire/trash with an exclamation of disgust", the content of these reviews is taken very seriously. If the problem persists, people can lose their jobs. Tough luck if your self esteem is wounded. Such people would have inflicted far worse damage on their victims.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with this at all. Firstly, there is a vast difference between an anonymous review of the kind you suggest and an anonymous letter of the kind we see in either The Mystery of the Spiteful Letters or In the Fifth at Malory Towers. The former is an elicited response and the latter is not; they're apples and oranges. The kind of thing that is going on in this pair of Blyton books cannot be explained away as "self-preservation".

Secondly, I don' t believe that June's behaviour can be justified and/or advocated in this way. I don't know when last you read In the Fifth at Malory Towers, but if you look at June's letters, they are not protests against being bullied. If they were genuine protests against bullying, both the content and the recipients of the letters would have been different. These letters are not anonymous notes left on a teacher's desk to complain about mistreatment; they are in fact a form of bullying in themselves. The letters contain spiteful comments addressed towards Moira and Felicity. Moira may herself be at fault, but Felicity hasn't done anything to deserve such comments from June! And even if Moira is at fault, to fight bullying with a bullying technique doesn't solve the problem; it only exacerbates it. I'm not saying that Moira is blameless in the situation, but June's behaviour is undoubtedly at fault here. To claim otherwise is simply ludicrous! On the other hand, had the complaints been made to the matron, a teacher or Miss Greyling herself, then certainly they could have been followed up in an appropriate manner - but this is not the case.

Later days
David

[70s-child]

but June's behaviour is undoubtedly at fault here. To claim otherwise is simply ludicrous!

Really! Why? Has she killed anyone? Assaulted? Robbed? Blackmailed? Damaged property? No. What she did was to write a bunch of childish, spiteful notes to the people whom she rightly or wrongly held responsible for all that was wrong in her life. To argue that only cowards and the lowest of the low do this, and to go to the extent of attempting to expel her, may appeal to people's sentiment, but it certainly doesn't appeal to logic.

Furthermore, it is indicated from the time she makes her first appearance in the books, that she has been bullied pretty constantly, including within her own family. I know something about bullying, and I can state this for certain - it leaves a lot of scars. It is humiliating, and leaves the victim feeling completely powerless. And it is that feeling of impotence that leads victims of bullying to find various outlets for it. Some school kids bring guns and shoot their class-mates. Others do the same with knives. Several others do their best to somehow sabotage the bully's life or their work (sabotage btw is done on the sly, not openly). Some go and complain and then hope for the best. Many remain outwardly silent, but show serious signs of physical and mental health problems. I don't know about you, but to me, on a seriousness scale of one to ten, June's actions don't even register a zero. Let me clarify though that I am not condoning her actions; but to address the root cause and then reprimand her is one thing, to try and expel her with a lot of humbug about it being cowardly etc. is over-the-top.

[RainbowJude]

Has she killed anyone? Assaulted? Robbed? Blackmailed? Damaged property? No. What she did was to write a bunch childish, spiteful notes to the people whom she rightly or wrongly held responsible for all that was wrong in her life. To argue that only cowards and the lowest of the low do this, and to go to the extent of attempting to expel her, may appeal to people's sentiment, but it certainly doesn't appeal to logic. Furthermore, it is indicated... that she has been bullied pretty constantly, including within her own family. I know something about bullying, and I can state this for certain - it leaves a lot of scars. It is humiliating, and leaves the victim feeling completely powerless. And it is that feeling of impotence that leads victims of bullying to find various outlets for it. Some school kids bring guns and shoot their class-mates. Others do the same with knives. Several others do their best to somehow sabotage the bully's life or their work (sabotage btw is done on the sly, not openly). Some go and complain and then hope for the best. Many remain outwardly silent, but show serious signs of physical and mental health problems. I don't know about you, but to me, on a seriousness scale of one to ten, June's actions don't even register a zero. Let me clarify though that I am not condoning her actions; but to address the root cause and then reprimand her is one thing, to try and expel her with a lot of humbug about it being cowardly etc. is over-the-top.

You're shifting the bounds of the discussion here. I've not mentioned anything about whether the punishment outlined for June was suitable or not. I was only talking about her actions in the context of the story, and what she had done certainly did match the situation you described in your first post. I'd be all for reprimanding June, with the view on addressing the root cause of her behaviour - but I don't think it's at all excusable to dismiss her actions in any way. Dismissing or even excusing June's actions is a form of condonation that makes it seem as if what she has done is appropriate, when it isn't. One can't condemn one kind of bullying - such as the largely physical bullying that June had received - and excuse another - the emotional bullying of which June herself is a perpetrator. This just isn't consistent, even if June's own bullying is the result of her being bullied. You also seem to be saying that June's actions have no consequences, because the outcome isn't physical, but for someone like Felicity, who has done no wrong, these notes could have had a devastating effect psychologically had the circumstances not allowed Mrs Potts to figure out that June was writing the notes and intervene. Surely if June was trying to sabotage the perceived bully, her notes should have been targeted at Darrell anyway?

Later days
David

[Anita Bensoussane]

I think what shocks Miss Potts and Miss Grayling so much is that June, a first former, had it in her to be so cunning and manipulative over a period of weeks, and to keep up a prolonged campaign of spite. Miss Potts calls her "a strong character gone wrong," and I imagine the teachers choose to hammer home the idea that her behaviour is criminal in order to give the brazen June a much-needed shock - a shock that will hopefully help her to see the seriousness of her actions and stop her going even further astray in the future.

To send June packing does seem harsh but then that never actually happens, owing partly to Moira's admission that she herself isn't blameless. Throughout the book we see the older girls maturing and growing in self-knowledge and Miss Grayling no doubt welcomes and fully understands Moira's entreaty to give June another chance. The Headmistress would be glad to see the girls taking matters into their own hands - in consultation with her. In the Fifth at Malory Towers is threaded with episodes of malice and discord and the girls gradually sort things out between themselves - it's a term in which they learn a lot of lessons other than the academic ones, and not only through putting on a play.

Anita

[70s-child]

You're shifting the bounds of the discussion here. I've not mentioned anything about whether the punishment outlined for June was suitable or not.

The way I see it, punishment for an offense should be in proportion to/can be a gauge for the magnitude of the offense. So it is perfectly relevant for me to bring it up.

Dismissing or even excusing June's actions is a form of condonation that makes it seem as if what she has done is appropriate, when it isn't.

How about the word "understanding" instead? Do you like that better?

You also seem to be saying that June's actions have no consequences, because the outcome isn't physical

Actually, I made no such claims. I am merely arguing for keeping things in perspective. BTW it is not unusual to find victims of bullying to turn bullies themselves, just as victims of abuse often turn abusers themselves - I did mention mental and physical health issues. But this cycle has to be broken somewhere, and I don't see much point in haranguing and blaming the victim.

I imagine the teachers choose to hammer home the idea that her behaviour is criminal in order to give the brazen June a much-needed shock

Personally I find that a little unethical. If I were to do a small wrong, and a person whom I look up to as mature and responsible, tried to terrorize me for it, I doubt I would have much respect left for them. I think June is brazen because of the way she has been treated all her life. She doesn't seem to have been given much affection by anyone. In her case, a little understanding or even sympathy for her situation might have made her a much nicer person.

In the Fifth at Malory Towers is threaded with episodes of malice and discord and the girls gradually sort things out between themselves - it's a term in which they learn a lot of lessons other than the academic ones

I like this book the best of the series myself. But I have to admit, Malory Towers is not my favorite school series, because there is far too much nastiness. Too many characters, including the leads, are obnoxious and I am hard put to find even a single person that I can say I like. But maybe I am paying the author a left handed compliment here. I guess these different sides we get to see of each person is what gives this series its depth.

[Anita Bensoussane]

I imagine the teachers choose to hammer home the idea that her behaviour is criminal in order to give the brazen June a much-needed shock

Personally I find that a little unethical. If I were to do a small wrong, and a person whom I look up to as mature and responsible, tried to terrorize me for it, I doubt I would have much respect left for them. I think June is brazen because of the way she has been treated all her life. She doesn't seem to have been given much affection by anyone. In her case, a little understanding or even sympathy for her situation might have made her a much nicer person.

The idea would not be to "terrorize" June, but to jolt her into realising the seriousness of her actions. She writes spiteful letters to hurt others but in so doing is also hurting herself, feeding a resentment that she has obviously been nursing for some time. Giving her a shock ought to act a catalyst, making her want to make a fresh start, which is why the notion of expelling her seems so inappropriate (as the girls realise). If June is to start anew she needs guidance and, as you say, understanding, and the people in the best position to offer that guidance and understanding are those at Malory Towers who are familiar with the situation and (to a degree) with June's history. They can help her resolve things and gradually come to feel comfortable at the school once more. To send her away might well leave her with the impression that what she did was so terrible that nothing she could do could ever make amends.

I have to admit, Malory Towers is not my favorite school series, because there is far too much nastiness. Too many characters, including the leads, are obnoxious and I am hard put to find even a single person that I can say I like.

I have to say that I like Darrell a lot, despite her faults, and also Mary-Lou, who blossoms from a timid, clingy girl living in the shadow of others into a quietly confident young woman who plays the lead in the Cinderella pantomime and plans to train as a nurse. Alicia does seem to get away with a lot, though. I imagine that if I were a pupil at Malory Towers I'd keep out of Alicia's way as much as possible, for fear of her sharp tongue!

Sorry this thread has strayed off-topic! Personally I see no harm in continuing this discussion if people wish, as it does relate to Spiteful Letters as well as In the Fifth at Malory Towers, but if anyone wants to post something about their favourite Find-Outers book, please do so!

Anita

[RainbowJude]

You're shifting the bounds of the discussion here. I've not mentioned anything about whether the punishment outlined for June was suitable or not.

The way I see it, punishment for an offense should be in proportion to/can be a gauge for the magnitude of the offense. So it is perfectly relevant for me to bring it up.

I agree that the punishment should fit the crime, but the discussion wasn't about that. It was about whether what June did was inappropriate, which it is.

Dismissing or even excusing June's actions is a form of condonation that makes it seem as if what she has done is appropriate, when it isn't.

How about the word "understanding" instead? Do you like that better?

Yes, I do. I can also understand and sympathise with June's situation, but that doesn't mean I believe her actions should be written off as if she had done nothing wrong.

You also seem to be saying that June's actions have no consequences, because the outcome isn't physical.

Actually, I made no such claims.

Not in so many words, but it was implied in the way you responded. The list of outcomes that you listed as examples were all physical and thus did not seem to consider what psychological effect the June's notes might have had on their recipients.

Later days
David

[RainbowJude]

My favourites have to be from book 5 - Missing Necklace - onwards.... In the later ones, Fatty is at the head and the others get trivial roles. Bets has only two roles - one of the "baby who does not know anything and acts as a foil for the not-understanding reader," and the second "the one who spots the main clue but fails to realize its significance." Larry and Pip are pretty much interchangeable, except the fact that Pip has an other role - "the 'elder brother' who snaps at Bets."

Don't forget poor Daisy who, it seems to me, often has bright ideas and is able to think up ways of making conversation as a means of getting information regarding the mystery from someone the Find-Outers are interviewing. She is absolutely magnificent in the hooter shop with the salesboy in The Mystery of the Missing Necklace. And little Bets doesn't seem quite as much a foil for the sake of younger readers as she was in the first trio of books: she's developed quite a good spirit and a good eye for details. After all, it is she who is able to see though Fatty's disguise at the fair. She does sometimes miss the significance of a vital clue, it seems, although in this book it's hardly her fault. She had just been knocked by a punt in the river! Larry, on the other hand, I find rather bland as a character - although he does make himself very useful at times - and, as you say, Pip seems to be very little other than a moody older brother for Bets.

I must say, having just finished The Mystery of the Missing Necklace, it seems to me that Fatty's transition to the role of leader in the Find-Outers is less jarring that I had suspected from posts I have read here. I think he definitely had some teething problems in The Mystery of the Spiteful Letters, but by this book he seems to have come into his own a bit more. Still I feel don't feel as if the others are forced into completely trivial positions; in this book, for example, they play an essential role as observers in the sweet shop and Larry rescues Fatty from the cupboard in the Waxworks room. Fatty may play a dominant role, but he wouldn't be able to work nearly as efficiently without the others contributing all they do.

Later days
David

[Ming]

Read on David, and you'll see how Fatty and Bets almost overshadow the rest of the FFO!

[70s-child]

Not in so many words, but it was implied in the way you responded. The list of outcomes that you listed as examples were all physical and thus did not seem to consider what psychological effect the June's notes might have had on their recipients.

Ok, first, your logic is faulty. You are in effect saying that anything I didn't mention, meant that I was silently condoning it. Well I didn't mention a hundred other things. Am I supposed to have done all that with malicious intent? The point of the list of misdemeanors was to get you to keep things in perspective (as I mentioned earlier, but which you have conveniently ignored), not to divert your attention with sleight of hand. If it is any consolation, the omission was not deliberate. You will never hear me say that psychological consequences of bullying are irrelevant, because I have first-hand experience of that sort of thing, but I still think that all things considered, June's actions were not as serious as they are made out to be.

With regard to the consequences for Felicity, while I agree with you that she was unfairly targeted, I can also see a reason here for June's actions. Not only is she is bullied (including physically) by Darrell, I think she is also very hurt by Felicity dumping her as a friend, especially since it is done to stand by Darrell - against whom she (rightly, I think) has a grudge. I may be wrong, but you never really hear of June having another 'special' friend. So losing Felicity is hard on her. Does it justify her subsequent actions? Perhaps not, but this sort of irrational lashing out is not uncommon when a person is very hurt and angry.

The idea would not be to "terrorize" June, but to jolt her into realising the seriousness of her actions. She writes spiteful letters to hurt others but in so doing is also hurting herself, feeding a resentment that she has obviously been nursing for some time. Giving her a shock ought to act a catalyst, making her want to make a fresh start

Well, this bothers me. To me, it looks like June is already very messed up. Often people who are very cocky and indifferent on the outside, are not really all that indifferent inside. Shocking her with extreme punishment, without even bothering to examine the source of the problem, is only likely to increase her resentment. If she had indeed been expelled she may have initially bought into the idea that she did a terrible wrong; but when things have settled down a bit, she would also likely start questioning why people like Darrell and Moira, who were pretty mean to her, should get away with things, while she herself bears the brunt of people's wrath. This often leads to a general grudge against the world as well as more destructive behavior.

As it happens, June gets lucky because Moira stands up for her. But you have to wonder at the teachers in the school. They are supposed to be far more experienced in dealing with students, and yet they are not be able to take the initiative in sorting the child out. Why must they have to rely on students, whose judgment maybe faulty, and the very same students moreover who led to this happening in the first place? It is all very well to take on problem students and say that the school expects to turn them into successes, but how is this miracle to be achieved if the school is not pro-active about it. As far as I can tell, all their success is achieved through a series of fortuitious circumstances like this one.

[Apologies for the digression]

[Anita Bensoussane]

The idea would not be to "terrorize" June, but to jolt her into realising the seriousness of her actions. She writes spiteful letters to hurt others but in so doing is also hurting herself, feeding a resentment that she has obviously been nursing for some time. Giving her a shock ought to act a catalyst, making her want to make a fresh start...

Well, this bothers me. To me, it looks like June is already very messed up. Often people who are very cocky and indifferent on the outside, are not really all that indifferent inside. Shocking her with extreme punishment, without even bothering to examine the source of the problem, is only likely to increase her resentment. If she had indeed been expelled she may have initially bought into the idea that she did a terrible wrong; but when things have settled down a bit, she would also likely start questioning why people like Darrell and Moira, who were pretty mean to her, should get away with things, while she herself bears the brunt of people's wrath. This often leads to a general grudge against the world as well as more destructive behavior.

The shock that I think June needed was to realise that her behaviour could be considered a criminal act and that, if she were older, it might well be a matter for the police. As I've said, I don't agree with the "extreme punishment" and, like you, I believe that to expel June from Malory Towers would have been counterproductive and served to increase her feelings of resentment and spite.

As it happens, June gets lucky because Moira stands up for her. But you have to wonder at the teachers in the school. They are supposed to be far more experienced in dealing with students, and yet they are not be able to take the initiative in sorting the child out. Why must they have to rely on students, whose judgment maybe faulty, and the very same students moreover who led to this happening in the first place? It is all very well to take on problem students and say that the school expects to turn them into successes, but how is this miracle to be achieved if the school is not pro-active about it. As far as I can tell, all their success is achieved through a series of fortuitious circumstances like this one.

I too feel that the teachers are portrayed in a bad light. They are keen to wash their hands of June and be rid of her and her problems even though, with everything having come to a head, now would seem to be an opportune moment to help her. I suppose Enid Blyton's priority was to tell a good story, and Moira's intervention is apt in that we see the insensitive, domineering Moria showing compassion and admitting that she is partly to blame. Many people during the course of the book have behaved maliciously or let their tempers get the better of them, and suddenly everything is put into perspective, harmony is restored and the book ends on a happy note with the performance of the pantomime. It's all a bit Shakespearean really! Unfortunately, in her efforts to achieve this ending and put the onus on the girls working things out for themselves, Blyton has made Miss Potts and Miss Grayling look rather uncaring.

Anita

[Lucky Star]

This is turning into quite a riotous thread. Not to pour petrol on fire but there is an interesting article in todays London metro newspaper. The paper has compared it to Mis Marple, shades of Moonraker's earlier post, but it is also very reminiscent of The Mystery of the Spiteful Letters. I tend to agree with the Police summation that poison pen letters can be greatly distubing and upsetting to their victim.

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.htm ... page_id=34" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Rob Houghton]

I seem to recall a similar discussion on the Adventure series going the same riotous way...

[Moonraker]