Philip Pullman is not a Blyton fan, it seems...

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Re: Philip Pullman is not a Blyton fan, it seems...

Post by Pippa-Stef »

Anita Bensoussane wrote:
Boodi wrote:By the way, what is mechanically recovered meat? The term means absolutely nothing to me!
Mechanically-recovered meat consists of the meat residue which is left on the bones of an animal after the main cuts of meat have been removed. Machinery is used to blast and scrape it off the bones and it is used in meat products like sausages and burgers.

Anita

That's the last time I eat them then! :roll:
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Re: Philip Pullman is not a Blyton fan, it seems...

Post by Boodi »

Thanks Anita, I now understand the meaning of the term, but quite frankly I find it a rather strange comparison or have I just failed to see the wit/irony?

Yes, it would rather put one off eating sausages, burgers and such like!
"I mean - unless you saddle and bridle and groom your own horse, it isn't a real horse!" (Jack Longfield, Six Cousins at Mistletoe Farm).
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Re: Philip Pullman is not a Blyton fan, it seems...

Post by Anita Bensoussane »

Boodi wrote:Thanks Anita, I now understand the meaning of the term, but quite frankly I find it a rather strange comparison or have I just failed to see the wit/irony?
It is a strange analogy and I don't think it works either. I suppose Philip Pullman is trying to say that books by many other children's authors contain the real "meat," while books by Enid Blyton are of inferior quality. However, to state that her stories are "mechanically recovered" doesn't make sense as she didn't actually take scraps of other writers' works and concoct stories from them! On the contrary, she had a very fertile imagination.
Boodi wrote:Yes, it would rather put one off eating sausages, burgers and such like!
Higher quality meat is used in sausages, burgers etc. too, but often a percentage of mechanically-recovered meat is added to bulk them up and make them less expensive to produce.

Anita
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Re: Philip Pullman is not a Blyton fan, it seems...

Post by Belly »

Totally off the point but I think you can get some high quality sausages with non-recovered meat but they cost more. Jamie Oliver brought attention to this with his 'School Dinners' programmes. People were eating 'turkey twizzles' which I think were mechanically recovered meat and then deep fried? Chicken nuggets usually contain poor quality recovered meat but you can always make your own from breast :D .
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Re: Philip Pullman is not a Blyton fan, it seems...

Post by Lucky Star »

Like anything else the more you pay the better you get. Some supermarkets sell very cheap packets of Own Brand sausages and burgers which consist almost entirely of mechanically recovered meat and preservatives. On the other hand if you go to a good local butcher they will be able to provide high quality sausages which are meaty and delicious.

On the subject of Philip Pullman I have never read any of his books or had a desire to but I wonder if, forty years after his death, people will still be discussing his work, forming societies and websites dedicated to him and mentioning him almost monthly in the press and media? I think not.
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Re: Philip Pullman is not a Blyton fan, it seems...

Post by Rob Houghton »

I have read several philip Pullman books, but can't say I ever really got into them. I did really enjoy 'Northern Lights', and the follow-up, 'Subtle Knife', but I must agree with others who have said they found 'The Amber Spy-glass' hard going. I read the first two or three chapters but couldnt get into it at all.

Most of Pullman's other stories I've read I have found similarily un-involving. I found 'Ruby In the Smoke' confusing and hard to follow until I saw it on television, and 'The Scarecrow and his Master' I found interesting but ultimately un-satisfying. the same goes for 'Clockwork'. Most books I read seem to show promise at first but then the end lets them down and you wonder why you bothered reading it.

I've just finished reading 'No Time for Goodbye', which won Richard and Judy's summer read, and this was compelling throughout, but I felt the ending let it down somewhat. Philip Pillman's books have that effect all the time, I feel, whereas Blyton's books give you an epic adventure and a satisfying resolution.

Just for the record:
Some books that leave me feeling satisfied after reading them are:

The Railway Children - E Nesbit
Rebecca - Daphne DuMaurier
The House at Riverton - Kate Moreton
The Forgotten garden - Kate Moreton
The Enchanted castle - E. Nesbit
The Wish House' - Celia Rees
And nearly all of Enid Blyton's! :D
'Oh voice of Spring of Youth
hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

(E. Blyton, Sunday Times, 1951)



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Re: Philip Pullman is not a Blyton fan, it seems...

Post by Moonraker »

Pippa-Stef wrote:Why do they always spell Malory Towers with two l's? :x
Probably due to lack of interest and knowledge in the product - much like the constant mis-spelling of Kirrin (Kirren) in the 70s TV series. Many of the Blyton article I have read recently are full of inaccuracies. It seems that a writer will read the title, say The Enchanted Wood, then write that it is a story about a magic wood. At least they can't do that with the majority of Secret Seven and Famous Five books!
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Re: Philip Pullman is not a Blyton fan, it seems...

Post by Viv of Ginger Pop »

Could someone enlighten me what is meant by "two dimensional". It is a charge often levelled at Blyton, and either the rest of the world know what the phrase means, or the critics are just copying a cliched phrase. If some characters do fall into this class, what books by other authors aimed at a similar age group do not?

I half watched a programme last week which showed how mechanically recovered meat was processed. I've been desperately trying to remember the title (it was on around 11pm - well after the watershed!) because it was highly illuminating. Also included was a pack of chicken breasts, containing 60% meat, and they showed the chemical mix required to get water to stay within the muscle fibres. Ugh. Apparently there is some control in what can be described as a sausage, so beware the product that describes itself as "Bangers" on the pack, cos sausage it aint!

For tea I sometimes have Banger and Mash, because I'd far rather treat myself to a high quality free range sausage made from the pigs in the field down the road than a Beano type dish made with goodness knows what!

Passing thought - what is in the freezer for tea :?

Viv
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Re: Philip Pullman is not a Blyton fan, it seems...

Post by Rob Houghton »

Moonraker wrote: Many of the Blyton article I have read recently are full of inaccuracies. It seems that a writer will read the title, say The Enchanted Wood, then write that it is a story about a magic wood. At least they can't do that with the majority of Secret Seven and Famous Five books!
So...
Enchanted Wood - all about a wood that is enchanted with fairies and gnomes.
The Wishing chair - a story about a chair that wishes things
The Treasure Hunters - a story all about a gang of hunters who come across some treasure.
Twins at St Claires - all about two twins who join a convent
Five Go To Demon's Rocks - about five children who fight the devil on some cliffs
The Mystery of the Pantomime cat - all about the history of pantomime cats :?

Okay - enough of being silly: I'm off to read 'Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone - all about some boy who find a stone, I believe. :roll:
'Oh voice of Spring of Youth
hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

(E. Blyton, Sunday Times, 1951)



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Re: Philip Pullman is not a Blyton fan, it seems...

Post by Anita Bensoussane »

Viv of Ginger Pop wrote:Could someone enlighten me what is meant by "two dimensional". It is a charge often levelled at Blyton, and either the rest of the world know what the phrase means, or the critics are just copying a cliched phrase. If some characters do fall into this class, what books by other authors aimed at a similar age group do not?
I agree, Viv, that "two-dimensional" is a cliched phrase and that critics who use it often fail to explain exactly why they feel an author's characters lack depth. If Philip Pullman means that the characters in long-running adventure series like the Famous Five don't develop a great deal, then he ought to be well aware (as an author himself) that that's simply the way such series work. There is a degree of development - for example, George Kirrin is initially an isolated figure who gradually learns how to give and accept friendship and, as the series progresses, she continues to be a unique individual with quickly-changing moods. However, although the adventures involve experiencing unimaginable fear, drama, danger, imprisonment and even death threats, the children don't appear to be affected in any significant or lasting way. If you're going to have a group of children fall headlong into one adventure after another, you can't really explore the psychology of each character in depth. Besides, each individual has to remain strong, and the group has to continue as a solid unit, to make future adventures possible. The characters have to bounce back and be as eager as ever to carry on making discoveries and doing their bit. A certain "sameness" from book to book is also helpful in creating the right atmosphere and making a set of twenty-one books feel like a series. Part of what makes readers warm to the characters is that they're unchanging in the essentials - they're always positive, brave and determined, whatever happens - and that's reassuring for child readers, as well as for nostalgic adults revisiting that golden world! As we said earlier, Enid Blyton never lost sight of her child audience whereas Philip Pullman (in my opinion) sometimes does.

In a number of her books, such as the school stories and the "family, home and society" novels (The Family at Red-Roofs, The Six Bad Boys, House-at-the-Corner, etc) there is a greater complexity of characterisation and some tough topics are tackled (very skilfully when we consider that Enid Blyton realised that novels she intended for older readers might well be read by younger ones too, since she wrote for such a wide age range.)

One of the few Blyton stories which I would definitely say does contain two-dimensional characters is "The Little Paper-Folk" (Chimney Corner Stories.) That's because some of the characters are cut out of magazines and newspapers by Susan and Jimmy, and magically brought to life!

Anita
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Re: Philip Pullman is not a Blyton fan, it seems...

Post by Rob Houghton »

particularly with the Famous Five and Secret seven, I would say Blyton's use of 'two dimensional characters' is extremely effective. Characters that arent too 'fleshed-out' help the reader to more easily put themselves into the characters they are reading about, and help them to feel more a part of the story. i would say this was Blyton's biggest strength as a writer. ANYONE could identify with most of her characters, because they were shadowy figures that we ourselves as readers could imagine and interpret in our own ways as we were reading. :D
'Oh voice of Spring of Youth
hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

(E. Blyton, Sunday Times, 1951)



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Re: Philip Pullman is not a Blyton fan, it seems...

Post by Anita Bensoussane »

Robert Houghton wrote: ANYONE could identify with most of her characters, because they were shadowy figures that we ourselves as readers could imagine and interpret in our own ways as we were reading. :D
I'd say that applies in the case of the Secret Seven and several other characters, but Enid also created lots of three-dimensional characters who took on a life of their own. "Two-dimensional" implies a flatness, yet many of Enid's creations, including cameo characters, sparkle. Pam, Barbara, Colin and co. may not loom large in my memory but my life would have been the poorer without characters like Fatty, Bets, Snubby, Darrell, Alicia, Jack and Lucy-Ann Trent, Elizabeth Allen, various Longfields (Susan, Roderick and Rose), Dorcas, Jenny Wren and even Mr. Twiddle and the Saucepan Man. All absolutely unforgettable!

Anita
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Re: Philip Pullman is not a Blyton fan, it seems...

Post by Moonraker »

...Not forgetting Noddy! :wink:
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Re: Philip Pullman is not a Blyton fan, it seems...

Post by Julie2owlsdene »

And Dick Kirrin :lol:

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Re: Philip Pullman is not a Blyton fan, it seems...

Post by Rob Houghton »

That's just what i meant, really: the main series, such as F.Five have these two-dimentional characters which anyone can 'inhabit' whilst reading - except maybe for George, who is more three-dimentional. Also, Fatty is a character who stands up on his own, and the fantasy characters definitely do. But Jo, Bessie and Fanny could be anyone, just as Mollie and Peter could be anyone: those characters are just as important because they help younger children to place themselves as the main characters.

Older children, and adults, more easily identify with 'rounded' characters and dont like two-dimensional characters as much. Its rather like 'goodies ' and 'baddies' - adults prefur some grey areas, but children like black and white.

But I have to agree that Noddy is very much a three-dimensional character!!! :lol:
'Oh voice of Spring of Youth
hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

(E. Blyton, Sunday Times, 1951)



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