Five Go Off to Camp - thoughts, observations and mysteries

Discuss the television and film adaptations of Enid Blyton's stories.
TB3
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Re: Five Go Off to Camp - thoughts, observations and mysteries

Post by TB3 »

Yo guys

I honestly have to agree with some of the sentiments about Julian - in Camp he's very pretentious, arrogant and dare-I-say self-righteous - I skimmed through the book the other day and his high-handed attitude to near everything - George, Anne, Mr Luffy, The Shepherd and even the Spook train itself makes me want to reach into the pages and beat his head against the locomotive's red-hot-firebox in the hope of driving some humility into him ;) (my apologies to any Julian-lovers reading this).

To Moonraker regarding the aerial photo - the bridge I mentioned is the line leading south towards the station - the spur that ends isn't a tunnel but a siding.

Regarding location - I don't mean to sound rude, but Camp is definitely not set in Cumbria - Cumbria is essentially mountains and lakes and nothing else. Given the fact that we know Kirren is on the south coast (The natural harbour from Book 20 is definitely Poole Harbour making Kirren somewhere nearby, probably on the coast of the Swanage peninsular where Enid spent many of her years) and that Luffy never drove over 35mph during the driving-trip, I would guess that the moorland setting for camp is either Exmoor, Dartmoor or Bodmin Moor in South-West England.
Last edited by TB3 on 30 Mar 2008, 22:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Five Go Off to Camp - thoughts, observations and mysteries

Post by dsr »

It does occur to me that it would be a huge waste of money to build a network of tunnels to connect to a railway yard miles form anywhere. Why didn't they build the railway yard somewhere more accessible? (I know, the answer, really - because it would have spoilt the story! :wink: )
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Re: Five Go Off to Camp - thoughts, observations and mysteries

Post by Moonraker »

Yes, dsr, it is an incredibly weak plot. Apart from the many tunnels (more than in central London!), why didn't Andrews just use his fleet of lorries. What an ordeal to steam up a loco just to move a few lorry load of goods a few hundred yards into a store, then cart all the loot up a hillside track to the lorries. Still an enjoyable read, though! :)
TB3 wrote:Given the fact that we know Kirren is on the south coast.....and that Luffy never drove over 35mph during the driving-trip, I would guess that the moorland setting for camp is either Exmoor, Dartmoor or Bodmin Moor in South-West England.
Well thought out! However, we mustn't forget that the Famous Five books are works of fiction. It is very easy to fall into the trap of thinking that it is all for real, therefore distances and times have to add up. Yes, Kirrin was probably influenced by the Isle of Purbeck, but that does not mean that the location of Camp has to be within Luffy's driving distance of Swanage!. After all, the locations are all in Enid's imagination, there was no real-life party who travelled from Swanage to wherever the six set up their camp, it was a story imagined by Enid, the distance between locations is largely irrelevant. Somehow, a load of railway lines, tunnels and goods yards just doesn't seem to fit in with a Devon/Cornwall setting to me. I have always thought that Northumberland or Westmorland was more in Enid's mind when she wrote Camp.
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Re: Five Go Off to Camp - thoughts, observations and mysteries

Post by TB3 »

Lol, well I'll still hold out on the Cornwall/Devon setting - the reason is due to something I found in a railway book about a proposed line to connect Falmouth with Exeter via Launceston - this would have had to have gone across the moors and tunnels would then be necessary. In the end this proposed line was never built, but imagine if it was!

Regarding Andrews and the practicality of the scheme; using the tunnel as a holding-ground allowed stolen/illegal goods to be secreted away for months until the fuss dies down and they can be safely redistributed. Using the train kept the local populace scared and ensured no-one would ever come prying into their business.

*

(takes deep breath - here comes the big one)

Regarding Olly's yard - a yard in the middle of nowhere makes no sense - unless the yard was an operational necessity.

Consider this scenario;

The line is built by a small company under the auspices of the hypothetical Falmouth-Exeter line (given Tucky's account I'd say sometime between 1870 and 1890) to connect a mineral resource (let's say China Clay, a suggestion from the 'Famous 5 and the Haunted Railway' game) with a trunk main-line. The major engineering work is the two tunnels near the line's top end to connect Roker and Kilty Vales, where the Clay Pits lie.

During construction of the tunnels, the workers break into natural caves. These are opened out and used as part of the tunnel to Roker Vale, shored up where necessary.

The line opens and profits somewhat. However operational difficulties soon arise. To minimize construction costs the tunnel is built to as small a profile as possible (I'd like to correct Enid when she insinuates that tunnels of a mile length are short - boring between 1.5 and 2 miles of underground line is a massive feat and a big expenditure!). However reducing the cross-sections creates a problem - ventilation. Steam engines in a long, confined tunnel can asphyxiate their crews (this happened in Coombe Down Tunnel near Bath once and was a major issue in America) and since mineral trains are very heavy and require either very powerful engines or multiple engines working in tandem, running long trains through the tunnel becomes a hazard.

The solution? Build a yard (Olly's Yard) just below the tunnel. Trains coming up the valley can then be split up into smaller, more workable trains to then be forwarded through the tunnel by small engines that won't asphyxiate their crews. Similarly, loaded mineral trains coming down through the tunnel would then be shunted into larger trains at Olly's Yard and then assigned to a larger goods engine to be worked out of the yard and down the valley to the rest of the railway network.

The reason why this occurs to me is because of Enid's description of the yard having many 'pairs' of lines, which suggests to me a marshaling yard for making up and splitting trains, rather than a yard for the loading, unloading and transfer of goods.

So, things go well for several years, but then the unthinkable happens - the natural caves are part of a larger geological fault which was never discovered, and a shift in this fault causes a large section of Roker Tunnel to collapse (this again is similar to a tunnel on the Ffestiniog railway in Wales which bisects a geological fault - speed limits are imposed and regular checks made to ensure the fault doesn't shift). The company is forced to give up on the line to Roker Vale and brick the tunnel up at its portal and about two-hundred yards from where the line from Olly's Yard forks.

With half its profits sliced the line begins to fail, but a final reprieve comes with WW1 - the demand for material resources to drive the war effort generates a final surge of traffic, but then with the war done the company folds and collapses circa 1918 (the shepherd said the line had been closed for 30 years).

In WW2 however mysterious events lead to the construction of the 'dummy tunnel wall' and the secret chamber (like Julian suggested) by the Army/Ministry of Defence. Possible uses are for secret experiments, or as a sanctuary for something valuable (works of art were historically protected during the Blitz by being relocated to Welsh mines) or as a ammunition dump. It is at this point that a small locomotive and some rolling stock are brought in to work the line, and at the end of the war the railway is once again abandoned, and the train sealed up in the hidden tunnel as if nothing ever happened.

However, someone in the secret enterprise later becomes involved in the flourishing post-war black-market, and strikes on the idea of exploiting the legend, and thus we come to the story of 'Camp'.

*

Regarding the legend of the spook-train, its possible that the story existed long before WW2 - I'd imagine digging such long tunnels would have led to deaths among the navvies, and possibly a crew did get suffocated by their engine, and some people could have been killed in the collapse of Roker Tunnel's roof. The sheer death toll on the line could have led to local legends and a general feeling of the line being 'a bad place', and then the coming of the train in the war and thereafter catalyzed the myths and gave them substance.

*

Hope you enjoyed this little spiel - thanks for reading this far :)
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Re: Five Go Off to Camp - thoughts, observations and mysteries

Post by Julie2owlsdene »

Moonraker wrote:
If it be a real train, where do 'ee come from, where do 'ee go?

And don't forget Ted Holmes, lying there with the lamp still burning in his 'and... :wink:

8)
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Re: Five Go Off to Camp - thoughts, observations and mysteries

Post by TB3 »

And old Ben Issac the Driver walking along the platform singing 'Rock of Ages' ;)

Sorry for boring everyone with my long lecture on railways btw - on a lighter note I managed to get in touch with Marcus Harris who might get back with an answer to the debate about the tunnel.

Cheers
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Re: Five Go Off to Camp - thoughts, observations and mysteries

Post by dsr »

That's good, TB3 - I'm happy now. :D . Thanks.
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Re: Five Go Off to Camp - thoughts, observations and mysteries

Post by Petermax »

It is time to re-animate this thread, as I have a treat in store for all fans of the 1970's series and Five Go Off To Camp in particular.

I have recently been in contact with Andy Crespin, the Driver of the locomotive used for the tunnel scenes in Five Go Off To Camp. In response to my query as whether he had any anecdotes and memories that I could possibly share with my fellow E.B.S members, Andy replied within hours and was only too pleased to be of assistance. I will let him take up the story;

Yes I was involved, as the driver, and I can remember most of what we got up to.

The tunnel mouth was built over the coal stage, and then the scenes of the 'tunnel' were filmed through painted glass up on a platform....I have some slides taken from the camera position, showing this.

Unfortunately, they wanted the loco to look dirty, (as if kept in this tunnel ) and ended up painting it with a sooty mixture, which afterwards had stained my lovely clean loco ! I was quite p****d off I can tell you !
The loco needed a repaint afterwards, and that's when it ended up blue.
During filming, the director kept saying he wanted steam out of the 'front' of the loco.....I tried to explain that if it was just sat there, you would not have steam leaking from the 'front'......In the end, I had to crack the regulator and keep opening and closing the drain cocks.
I thought he was a bit of an idiot.......Why would you make a noise if you were trying to hide a loco in a tunnel ??

At the time, we had an old condemned BR suburban coach that had been damaged in a bad shunt. This was also used in the filming.......Of course, while all this was going on, we were also doing proper work, with freights coming in most days, and the other lads shunting with the diesels, which had to disrupt filming.

I remember we got free food from the crew, but don't remember the actors at all.
I did watch it on TV when it came out, and once a few years later, saw a book of the story, which had the loco with me leaning out of the cab, on the front cover !

A few hours later, Andy emailed me again, this time with four photographs taken of the mock up tunnel portal, painted glass backdrop and of course the steam locomotive suitably dirtied up for its starring role. I will have to resize the photos to fit onto a forum page, but I will also make the full resolution versions available.

My thanks again to Andy Crespin for his generosity, you may read more about him here. The photos will be online soon.
EDIT: TYPO
Last edited by Petermax on 15 Oct 2008, 21:46, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Five Go Off to Camp - thoughts, observations and mysteries

Post by Kitty »

That was really interesting - he sounds a nice guy. I don't blame him for being annoyed about the repaint. :shock: Thanks for sharing!
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Re: Five Go Off to Camp - thoughts, observations and mysteries

Post by Julie2owlsdene »

Great links Petermax. I'll look forward to the photo's you say will be on line soon :D

8)
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Re: Five Go Off to Camp - thoughts, observations and mysteries

Post by Anita Bensoussane »

Great stuff, Petermax. Thanks for that.
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Re: Five Go Off to Camp - thoughts, observations and mysteries

Post by Moonraker »

Amazing! You are The Goods, as Inspector Japp would say!
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Re: Five Go Off to Camp - thoughts, observations and mysteries

Post by Lucky Star »

Absolutely amazing Petermax. I'll never know how you find out as much as you do. Many thanks for sharing that with us all. :D
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Re: Five Go Off to Camp - thoughts, observations and mysteries

Post by Petermax »

As mentioned in my earlier post, Andy Crespin took the time and the trouble to locate and scan his Marchwood slides almost within hours of receiving my enquiry. What you will view here is a very rare glimpse behind the scenes of Five Go Off To Camp in the Summer of 1977.

"I have looked out those slides today and scanned them for you. Unfortunately they are not very sharp, due to being taken on an old 'Instamatic' camera. ( plastic lens ) !!
However, it does show quite clearly how the tunnel was made. "


Click on the thumbnails to enlarge. For good measure, I have linked to the original high resolution picture files as well. The links are at the bottom of this post. Enjoy! :D

Andy has given permission for these pictures to be shared among the E.B.S Forum members.

Image

"Pic 1 shows the tunnel mouth....

Image

which as you can see from pic 2, was nothing more than a 'face' and about 6 feet of black canvas and wood to look the part. The coal stage was covered in dirt and shrubs to hide it. Note my poor loco covered in sooty crud !"


Image

"In pic 3, you can see the mock up tunnels 'inside', which we used to hide the loco in. This was built on the lines leading to the loco shed. As you can just make out, the other end of the 'tunnel' was blocked off with just a small opening to give it depth, and make it look like it was about 1/4 of a mile long !"

Image

"Pic 4 was taken from the camera platform and shows the glass plate that was painted to look like fields and hide the camp and background. You can clearly make out the square clear area, which if you looked through the camera, lined up with the tunnel entrance. Very clever !"

Grateful thanks again to Andy Crespin! :D Here are the links to the larger pictures;

Pic 1 1231x1031 765kb

Pic 2 1237x998 491kb

Pic 3 1229x974 612kb

Pic 4 1276x1212 931kb
Last edited by Petermax on 16 Oct 2008, 18:09, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Five Go Off to Camp - thoughts, observations and mysteries

Post by Ming »

Those are some great pictures, thanks for sharing them Petermax, and Andy!
Image

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