Viv of Ginger Pop wrote: ↑04 May 2023, 14:45
How the heck have we produced a society where future generations aren't BEING born
Viv
I'm sure there are many different reasons, but I do know that when my children were at school, they had lessons which focussed on how expensive having children (supposedly) is, not just with regard to kitting out a nursery from new, but also incorporating loss of income if one parent takes a career break - the figure ran into hundreds of thousands of pounds if I remember correctly.
I felt it was such a shame that the lesson focussed on the purely financial aspect, obviously it is important that teenagers realise that there is more to having a baby than just producing a cute little 'dolly' to play with, but I felt it was a shame it wasn't balanced with the joy that parenting can bring, and also that babies don't NEED brand new nursery equipment, lots of clothes etc, and that childcare costs/loss of earnings aren't always as bad as they seem on paper - many people can job share with a partner, or have family who can help out. Personally I found that although I no longer had an income when my children were small, I also saved a fortune by not needing to buying smart clothes for work - a baby doesn't care if Mummy wears just a handful of clothes which she's owned for years, and as I worked in a large office, there was hardly a week went by where there wasn't a collection for someone's birthday, retirement, wedding etc etc.
Much as I love children, and feel a bit sad that personally most of the young people I know don't seem to want children, with the way this country is building over so much farmland, maybe it is a good thing that the birth rate is going down - hopefully there won't be a need to destroy any more of the landscape soon.
Katharine wrote: ↑04 May 2023, 22:23
I'm sure there are many different reasons, but I do know that when my children were at school, they had lessons which focussed on how expensive having children (supposedly) is, not just with regard to kitting out a nursery from new, but also incorporating loss of income if one parent takes a career break - the figure ran into hundreds of thousands of pounds if I remember correctly.
I felt it was such a shame that the lesson focussed on the purely financial aspect, obviously it is important that teenagers realise that there is more to having a baby than just producing a cute little 'dolly' to play with, but I felt it was a shame it wasn't balanced with the joy that parenting can bring, and also that babies don't NEED brand new nursery equipment, lots of clothes etc, and that childcare costs/loss of earnings aren't always as bad as they seem on paper - many people can job share with a partner, or have family who can help out. Personally I found that although I no longer had an income when my children were small, I also saved a fortune by not needing to buying smart clothes for work - a baby doesn't care if Mummy wears just a handful of clothes which she's owned for years, and as I worked in a large office, there was hardly a week went by where there wasn't a collection for someone's birthday, retirement, wedding etc etc.
Much as I love children, and feel a bit sad that personally most of the young people I know don't seem to want children, with the way this country is building over so much farmland, maybe it is a good thing that the birth rate is going down - hopefully there won't be a need to destroy any more of the landscape soon.
As someone who isn't at all paternal, but is an animal / nature loving person, I was going to post that very thing myself. But then decided to stay out of it as I don't really like getting involved in any kind of deep debates on social media. But, since you've posted it, I'll just add my agreement to the point.
I take your point, Katharine, that bringing up children doesn't cost anywhere near as much as various surveys and articles claim. I found that my daughter and son were just as happy with simple pleasures (drawing and colouring, baking, reading, board games, walks, kicking a football, playing in the park...) as they were with items or activities that cost more money. They had to share a bedroom until my daughter was in her twenties but I think that helped them learn to co-operate and consider the needs of others.
Having said that, the cost of housing has gone up massively in recent years (as Viv's link shows), whether renting or buying, and I feel that has had a huge impact on people's ability to start a family. My son pays £650 a month for a room in a shared house (the cheapest available in the area where he works), and my daughter slightly less (also for a room in a shared house). Neither could bring up a family in those conditions (not that either of them is married), and paying so much to rent a room means it will take a long time to save up enough money to live somewhere with more space. In the UK, the average age for a woman to have her first child is now 29.5 years, and I'm sure the price of accommodation has played a part in preventing people having children younger.
That's not the only factor, of course. We live in a society that depends on technological skills, and education tends to go on for longer these days. With young people often studying well into their twenties and then needing to settle into the world of work, many aren't ready to start a family until considerably later than previous generations, which no doubt affects the number of children they have in total. Women are more likely to follow a career than they were in the past, meaning that work might be given greater priority - and that childcare fees may have to be taken into account when planning a family.
Supplying children with essential items has become more expensive than it used to be because, as the years have passed, parents and guardians have been expected to provide more and more. I can't find my copy of The Diddakoi by Rumer Godden but I recall a character remarking that children used to need little more (materially) than food and basic clothes, but now it was necessary to provide them with a school uniform. That book was published in 1972. When I was thirteen, in 1983, my mother had to buy me my own calculator for school. By the time my daughter and son were at secondary school (2006 and 2011 respectively), it was assumed that they would have access to a family computer and they also had to have a pen drive (I remember that I didn't even know what a pen drive was when I saw it on my daughter's list of required items!) Now it seems that some schools ask pupils to use mobile phones in lessons, so I suppose it's taken for granted that they will all have one.
The current cost-of-living crisis might well make people even more hesitant to start a family, or add to their family. Plans get put on hold during times of uncertainty, sometimes indefinitely. With it being more and more of a struggle to provide the basics, it doesn't surprise me that people are having fewer children.
"Heyho for a starry night and a heathery bed!" - Jack, The Secret Island.
"There is no bond like the bond of having read and liked the same books."
- E. Nesbit, The Wonderful Garden.
Very good points Anita. I especially agree with the school equipment issue - my parents said that when they were at school, everything was provided, even pencils and pens, now we even have to buy text books and there is the expectation that all children have access to mobile with data is something that really irritates me.
Another couple of points that occurred to me since my first post, is the political attitude towards parenting. Campaigns to 'get mothers back to work', give the impression that parenting isn't something worthwhile. In reality of course, jobs that fit around the school day are limited so the ability to balance parenting and work is far from easy. The other political point is Family Allowance, I don't know if it actually happened, but I believe there was talk of limiting it to 2 children per family. I can appreciate that there aren't bottomless funds, but bearing in mind that many people choose not to have children these days, if some families have 3 or 4 children then surely it's just maintaining the status quo?
The point about continuing education is a good one - I left school at 16, as did most of my friends, so we were able to buy houses in our early 20s, and most had completed their families by about the age of 30. As we all stayed local after starting work, we continued to live with our parents until buying a place of our own, so it was much easier to save the deposit for a house - I don't think many parents would charge their children anywhere near as much for their 'keep' as it costs to rent somewhere alone.
However, despite all these practical considerations, from conversations I've had with some young people, I think the main reason for not having children, is that they just don't like/want them. Yesterday someone said they thought babies were 'disgusting'. I always knew that having children was something I hoped I'd be able to do.
I think peculiar things like the cladding crisis have also played a factor.
In 2017 there was a dreadful fire at Grenfell Tower in London. The tower block had been clad in a material (presumably to keep it warm and look better) but after an electrical fault in a fridge, due to all sorts of factors, fire took hold and over 70 people died.
Many other tower blocks were found to have similar cladding problems, which now needs removing, but there have been multiple rows about who should pay for the work. Thousands of responsible young people, for whom the flat was their first step on the property ladder, found themselves with a bill of more than a years wage. Meanwhile, their flat is unsaleable and many go to bed worried about another fire. Often, there are fire wardens now on duty every night.
Not only can these young adults not afford a family, but who would want a baby in a place at risk of fire?
Ongoing problems like the cladding issue are bound to affect the decisions of those involved. It's a terrible situation. People who have bought new properties built on brownfield sites, only to find that the land is contaminated, are in a similar position, concerned about the possibility of children being harmed by toxic materials in the soil.
Katharine, people I know who are in their twenties - or even thirties - do want children but are worried that they won't be able to afford to rent or buy a place big enough for a family.
"Heyho for a starry night and a heathery bed!" - Jack, The Secret Island.
"There is no bond like the bond of having read and liked the same books."
- E. Nesbit, The Wonderful Garden.
From what I've heard about this same issue in Australia (I did an assignment on the declining birth rate for uni a number of years ago), financial concerns really are a huge factor — young people delaying having children, having fewer than they'd like to or having none at all, because of fears that they simply can't afford to raise a family. That's most likely been compounded for many people in recent years. And I remember another major element was concerns about finding a stable and happy relationship with a spouse / partner beforehand. I know that would be a huge factor for me. I've never had a burning desire to have children — I toyed with the notion at times, but I know how grateful I was and am to have grown up in a very stable family with two parents who love and support each other, and I know I wouldn't want to have children unless I could be pretty sure of providing the same for them. Oddly enough, I've only once fallen seriously in love, and while that definitely got me thinking along those lines — I would have been happy to have that guy's kids!! — that relationship didn't turn out the way I wanted it to at the time. Now I'm almost at the limit of child-bearing age and it still hasn't happened. Sometimes I feel a little sad and wonder if I've missed out on something, and sometimes I think maybe it's for the best, but there it is. I'm sure there are other younger people who've had a similar experience.
Society Member
It was a nuisance. An adventure was one thing - but an adventure without anything to eat was quite another thing. That wouldn't do at all. (The Valley of Adventure)
I think the rising costs for basic needs like a flat or a house, food etc. are an important point.
But I know also of several people (in my more "left" bubble) who don't want children because they don't want them to live in a world of the climate crisis, more and more wars and fascist governments (or at least fascist parties with considerable influence).
I think it goes beyond finance. If you actually want something badly enough you will usually try your hardest to get it regardless of worry of cost but if you're not that bothered then finance can be almost be used as a justified and more acceptable reason for not pursuing it. Saying you don't have children because you can't afford it generally goes down better than saying you don't have them because you plain don't like them!
Various people over the years have given me funny looks when the "when are you going to settle down and have children?" question has come up. Some seem baffled, others horrified when I reply with a resounding "not in this lifetime", though at least they've stopped telling me I'll change my mind when I'm older (that used to drive me nuts). If they pressed the issue and asked why they disliked the answer even less - that asides from the ones in Enid Blyton's stories I really don't like real kids that much. I don't have a maternal bone in my body, I feel very awkward around them, unnatural and out of my comfort zone entirely. A baby animal I can pick up and smother in affection, talk to, deal with and feel myself wanting to look after it. Not so with a human baby. I find them annoying and embarrassing and the thought of being stuck with one for nearly two decades is a thought that in all honesty I find quite unbearable. Even as a little girl playing with my dolls pram I never wanted it to be real and could never see myself pushing a real pram. I haven't got the right qualities and attributes to be a mother either, I'm far too selfish. I like my work which I wouldn't be prepared to stop or give up, I like being able to come and go as I please, I like having my time to myself to do whatever I want and I like having my money to spend on what I want, mainly books. I also wouldn't want to be responsible for anyone else. My dog is my baby and she's enough responsibility for me. None of my friends have kids either as we're all dog people and very happy that way. The world is far too overpopulated and crowded as it is and there's always going to be some who do want them so what does it matter if some don't? There is much more to life than having children, like living yourself.
Society Member
I'm just an old fashioned girl with an old fashioned mind
Not sophisticated, I'm the sweet and simple kind
I want an old fashioned house, with an old fashioned fence
And A̶n̶ ̶o̶l̶d̶ ̶f̶a̶s̶h̶i̶o̶n̶e̶d̶ ̶m̶i̶l̶l̶i̶o̶n̶a̶i̶r̶e̶
Replace maternal with paternal, and dogs with cats, and that could pretty much describe me. Although I don't have to have as many conversations explaining why I don't intend to have children - maybe there's not the same level of surprise at a bloke not being paternal? I don't know.
But I have been told a number of times over the years that "you'll change your mind when you have them yourself". Well, no, I'm much more of an animal person, and really not in my comfort zone around kids, especially, so I'm much happier with my pets and still have no intention of ever becoming a father.
I'm a bit puzzled by the first part of your post, Viv. That sounds more like an answer some men might give when asked if they have any children, but not a woman.
Ice Maiden, I've just read this which happened in your part of the country. Maybe another reason some might not want to experience such situations with children: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-65619091
"You can't change history as that won't change the future"
I think definitely people are more surprised if a woman isn't maternal. It seems to be sort of expected that you are and that you can't wait to settle down and start a family in the same way that you are expected to coo and gush over the baby in a pram over how adorable he or she is. Personally I don't think babies are adorable or cute at all and am baffled as to why women go loopy over them but then other people say the same about puppies which I am just as loopy over. I remember being on a walk once and met a lady with a pram and a dog. We stopped for a chat and she was rather bemused that I was far more interested in her beagle than her baby . The fact is they just don't interest me so beyond the polite what's his/her name I get stuck as to what else to say. As I say it doesn't come naturally but I do think if you're a man people are less bothered and don't think it's as odd.
BB - that's terrifying. Urgh I would never go on a roller-coaster, too much like tempting fate for me and I don't like heights either. I can't believe they allow a 7 year old on one though. We used to have a twice yearly fair here that had rides, which you had to be a certain height to go on, and you were not allowed on this one specific ride unless you were over 14 even though it only went up and around like a clock face, nothing like a rollercoaster.
Society Member
I'm just an old fashioned girl with an old fashioned mind
Not sophisticated, I'm the sweet and simple kind
I want an old fashioned house, with an old fashioned fence
And A̶n̶ ̶o̶l̶d̶ ̶f̶a̶s̶h̶i̶o̶n̶e̶d̶ ̶m̶i̶l̶l̶i̶o̶n̶a̶i̶r̶e̶
Boatbuilder wrote: ↑17 May 2023, 15:20
Ice Maiden, I've just read this which happened in your part of the country. Maybe another reason some might not want to experience such situations with children: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-65619091
The reaction might be understandable, but it's surely way over the top. Safety bars in roller coasters aren't designed to stop people falling out, they're designed to stop people from jumping out. If you need holding in, you get proper over-the-shoulder snug fitting safety belts.
— that relationship didn't turn out the way I wanted it to at the time. Now I'm almost at the limit of child-bearing age and it still hasn't happened. Sometimes I feel a little sad and wonder if I've missed out on something, and sometimes I think maybe it's for the best, but there it is. I'm sure there are other younger people who've had a similar experience.
. The fact is they just don't interest me so beyond the polite what's his/her name I get stuck as to what else to say. As I say it doesn't come naturally but I do think if you're a man people are less bothered and don't think it's as odd.
