How Do We Write?

[Rob Houghton]

I do know that if you don't indent each new paragraph, a publisher won't even read what you send them!

I believe all my books read from left to right!!

[Anita Bensoussane]

Maybe one day they'll be published in multiple languages - including Arabic and Hebrew which read from right to left!

[Courtenay]

I was just thinking that myself. Or how about Japanese, which reads from left to right when it's written horizontally, but right to left when it's written vertically?? (I think the same may be true of Chinese, but I'm not absolutely sure.)

Anyway, Rob, I also hope you do get some of your books published one day — in whatever direction!

[Julie2owlsdene]

Hard to explain, Robert, I mean don't indent keep all the layout to the left only. publisher will read it that way, that's the way I sent mine in.

When they pop it into book form they do all the indentations etc. Just thought it might help. If you don't think it will, then sorry for the suggestion, I was only trying to help you on presentation. Only wanting to help you as I have seen the way you have presented the book.

[Rob Houghton]

That's interesting, Julie...I thought that might be what you meant...but all the books I've ever read about writing, and all the publisher's house styles I've studied, demand that paragraphs be indented with no gap between paragraphs. Its the way I've always been told to lay out fiction writing. Usually they advise not to 'justify' paragraphs at all but to indent five spaces for each new paragraph.

I always feel its much easier to read when paragraphs are indented. One thing I hate about the layout of our weekly serials on this site is that paragraphs aren't indented and I find it much harder to read!

[Tony Summerfield]

I always feel its much easier to read when paragraphs are indented. One thing I hate about the layout of our weekly serials on this site is that paragraphs aren't indented and I find it much harder to read!

I actually sent your serial to Keith as you wrote it, Rob, with indented paragraphs, so it is his programme that is removing the indentations.

[Rob Houghton]

I guessed you had, Tony - maybe these days its looked on as better not to indent paragraphs? I guess it's something to do with the website layout template (not that I know anything about the technicalities!!) but I just personally feel a piece of writing flows better when there are indents.

I remember reading once that many publisher's won't even read a submitted manuscript or sample chapters if they aren't laid out properly with indented paragraphs!

[zaidi]

Anyway...

I've almost finished my Barney Mystery. Now need to go back and edit and proof read it!

I also have a few ideas for some other follow on novels...but we'll see how they go.

I've always enjoyed writing since I was a child. At the age of 10, my teacher told my mom I had a big talent for creative writing, and should be encouraged...it was his fault that I spent the next thirty years plus trying to get published! I've written several novels over the years, some which have really impressed those who've read them -- but I've never impressed a publisher enough to get published.

Regards teachers teaching us how to write...and giving us advice...I listened when it came to essays, because their construction has to be learned - but I never listened when it came to creative writing. One of the best things I ever read about creative writing is that THERE ARE NO RULES. Sure - there's punctuation, and layout, and spelling, and convention - but they are all there to be broken. You don't HAVE to write in any particular structure. That's why its creative writing!

One of my favourite devices is to write books set in several times. I've written two like this - 'The Last Summer' - which is an adult novel set in the late 1800's and the 1940's, in which scenes and themes from the one era filter through into the latter era, and 'Dark Hall' which is a children's novel about a house that appears only when the moon shines, set both in the 1970's and the 1600's.

Rob, I pretty much agree with your views.
And im not suprised why you didnt attract a publisher, for all those years. I will tell you why,
because many times whats unique and new, may catch the eye of the publishers,but its more of money they need .They publish stories that are most likely to get sold more often, for them investing in new things is tough because they cant be sure, whats different would possibly be successful or not.
And thats pretty wrong,however you must know one of the best writers and inspirational people get the most rejections and failures, because great ideas and great things takes time to be heard and read and loved.
Jack cane field, the author of chicken soup soul( not exactly the author) had his book " Chicken Soup for Soul" badly rejected , it got rejected around 144 times( i guess) but it then got published and Chicken Soup for Soul has number of series and its got so successful that you have no idea.


Another thing, I would like to say is,we often wonder why we suffer through similar situations of failures or bad happenings or bad people many times( even when possibly every time we better ourselves to not make it happen again). This happens because getting failure once or twice, stores into our subconscious that we will suffer through that again, a fear gets inculcated,this creates a negativity and we fearing it , attract those thoughts into us and as we visualise failure or visualise the past happenings, our mind stores this and we attract the same failure or the same bad thing over and over again , as we come to believe it.
You need to visualise everything you want and slowly and steadily as the negativity rubs off, the energy of positivity and positive visualisations will attract the things you want( rather than the things you donot want).

Rob , you need to know you are enough a good writer, enough! and you need to know you've done your best. A publisher cannot value the worth of your writing because he isnt a writer, a book lover, he is a man who reads it for what will attract the audience and how much will he earn. And not everyone can know your potential except yourself.

El James, whose book Fifty Shades of Grey, had a critical success. Her book was rejected by every single publisher so her book started as a cheap Ebook on the internet. And then it became what you call a big hit.
Her ideas were unique and different,but to understand them it needed time.

So i would suggest, gain up confidence, forget all you fears, and write from your true soul, which isnt about attracting the publisher to publish it. That kind of writing will show your real potential.

And then, as writing isnt your primary source of income try publishing on internet platforms like Wattpad. This will work pretty good,because when your story is free to read, people often experiment reading all kinds of new&unique ideas because they donot have to spend a single penny on it. But if they have to buy, they make a great effort in deciding and their decision is often based on whats popular.And many times if the book is great people even buy the book they have fully read online.

I hope I havent made a mess of thoughts, and fully communicated what I wanted to inspire.

[Rob Houghton]

Thanks Zaidi! yes - very well said. I know that mostly its the unusual things that initially face rejection or derision - but then its their very uniqueness that sets them apart and in the end might make them popular!

[Julie2owlsdene]

I agree with Zaidi about the 'money' issue.

When I sent off my Find Outers in Retirement to then, Chorion, who had the rights, they said they don't know in which category to publish these stories, Adults, or Children, and they didn't want to lose money on putting it in the wrong category, so therefore they as the copyright holders, wouldn't take the stories on, and so they stayed on Keith's site in Fan Fic.

[zaidi]

Thanks Zaidi! yes - very well said. I know that mostly its the unusual things that initially face rejection or derision - but then its their very uniqueness that sets them apart and in the end might make them popular!

I hope u take up the idea of writing on the internet too

Julie you only agree with the money issue :p
I've been going through this process of immense failure and similar bad happenings,that I later discovered through some great Energy Healers and Talkers on Mind Valley that, much of it is also our own negativity and fear and visualisations that block our way to fuller potential and growth. Meditation and Growth Healing could make a major transformation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b93ZLw_Ra8
And Stuart Wilde's Law of Attraction, theory is so very true. That we are limitless,imagination is the path to our dreams and goals and the Universe gives what you put in through your thoughts( negative or positive) but it has a special timing. Consistency is needed to stay on the track , staying positive no matter what goes or comes. Has anyone noticed, you wanted something really badly or someone or something to happen, you imagined it or wanted , but it didn't happen then but happened sometime later? And you were amazed like, I dreamed of it and it happened.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUS5_lgxEFs

[MJE]

     Once again, I have fallen away, so I feel a little self-conscious coming into a discussion like this. (If I need an excuse, I have had an uncommon amount of distractions for months now which have disrupted lots of things I might otherwise do). But I would like to pick up a few points.
     This is of interest to me, as I am interested in writing novels myself, although I have had little success in doing so (most recently, my efforts, looking more potentially successful than anything before, having been disrupted by the aforementioned disruptions, which I won't bore anyone with here).

Regards teachers teaching us how to write...and giving us advice...I listened when it came to essays, because their construction has to be learned - but I never listened when it came to creative writing. One of the best things I ever read about creative writing is that THERE ARE NO RULES. Sure - there's punctuation, and layout, and spelling, and convention - but they are all there to be broken. You don't HAVE to write in any particular structure. That's why its creative writing!

     I am perhaps a little more conservative than this - about rules, that is. I won't say rules cannot ever be broken, and I agree and accept that almost any rule (possibly even any rule) can be broken if (a) you have strong enough reason to do it and breaking the rule enhances the story, and (b) you are skillful enough to get away with it. But I think "There are no rules" is too strong, as it seems to imply that you can break rules almost without any reason, just because you feel like it, without the story suffering - and I have my doubts as to whether this is usually true.
     I suppose it partly depends on what "creative writing" is; I'm actually not quite sure. Is it just fiction and poetry, or is it something broader than that? Does "creative writing" possibly even exclude normal fiction and imply a certain experimental or unconventional approach?
     But if we take something basic like punctuation or grammar, there are well-established rules for these which help the writing remain clear, and I think it would take quite a strong and compelling reason to justify departing from these. I was just curious what your view about this is, Rob (or anyone else who wishes to comment). I have occasionally read fiction that did odd things with punctuation, grammar, and the like, and, while I may have still been able to follow the story, these odd things would not help me, and very likely would add a distraction which took me out of the story to some extent, and just seemed completely unnecessary.
     There were two other elements you mentioned: layout and convention. I was also curious just what you meant by these. In most fiction, layout seems a very simple thing, so what rules were you thinking of here that could potentially be broken? And, finally, what elements were you thinking of that "convention" covered?
     Thanks.

Regards, Michael.

[joanne_chan]

Maybe one day they'll be published in multiple languages - including Arabic and Hebrew which read from right to left!

And do you know some of us read that way even in English!
I'd agree with having your new paragraphs clear so it is clear when you are talking about something else and so on in a draft. It might get a tadge confusing otherwise

[MJE]

That's interesting, Julie...I thought that might be what you meant...but all the books I've ever read about writing, and all the publisher's house styles I've studied, demand that paragraphs be indented with no gap between paragraphs. Its the way I've always been told to lay out fiction writing. Usually they advise not to 'justify' paragraphs at all but to indent five spaces for each new paragraph. :D

I always feel its much easier to read when paragraphs are indented. One thing I hate about the layout of our weekly serials on this site is that paragraphs aren't indented and I find it much harder to read! 8)

     This is my understanding of how it's always been, too - and I lay out my own stories like this (and, as I'm sure everyone has noticed, my forum posts too). To me it's just the proper way to lay out writing.
     I agree with you, Rob, about the layout of the serials, and I would be inclined to alter the code to put in the indentations before printing out anything, to make it look "book-like". In fact, a puzzling thing I've noticed about the serial pages is that, while the chapters are coming out one by one, there is no indentation and there are empty lines between paragraphs (a format I heartily dislike, especially for fiction), but when the complete story is posted as a single file, indentations are put in and the empty lines eliminated. (It is possible to make this change very easily by using a different "style sheet" (coding technique for web pages), and the actual story files don't have to be changed - just a reference to a suitable style-sheet put in near the top (this is invisible to ordinary readers).) Does anyone know why these differences in layout appear at these different stages?
     So I was surprised to hear Julie say that she had found a publisher not wanting indentation in manuscripts, and they put it in themselves. That is certainly not the usual practice I've read of over a lifetime of reading "how-to-write" type books, which are unanimous in advocating the style Rob described.
     Apparently a non-justified right margin actually makes reading easier (I have heard that research has discovered), which is presumably why that is advocated - which still leaves the puzzle of why most fiction is printed right-justified.

Regards, Michael.

[Rob Houghton]

    
     There were two other elements you mentioned: layout and convention. I was also curious just what you meant by these. In most fiction, layout seems a very simple thing, so what rules were you thinking of here that could potentially be broken? And, finally, what elements were you thinking of that "convention" covered?
     Thanks.

Regards, Michael.

I agree with you that usually a story will make more sense to the reader if its punctuated in the 'normal' way - although, as you rightly say, there have been notable exceptions which break these basic 'rules' - but generally I would definitely say punctuation etc, helps us to read a piece of writing as it was intended to be read.

I do think some other 'mechanics' of writing can be broken - spelling has often been something that is played about with - especially if writing in dialect - for example the Brer Rabbit stories, or something written in other dialect. (can't think of any real-life examples at present!)

Then there's the 'layout' as I mentioned. I only have a couple of examples - maybe 'layout' is the wrong word...but for example the way that speech is laid out - or a book that doesn't have paragraphs. I read a book once which was totally speech, with no named characters - or rather no attributions of speech - only references in the dialogue. It was an experiment and I found it difficult to read - but it broke with convention.

I was probably also thinking of conventions such as one story being told in chronological order - sometimes time can be altered in a book - it could start at the end and work to a date further back for example. Teacher's would probably never encourage such a thing - at least, not when I was at school - but that doesn't mean it couldn't be attempted (and I'm sure it has!)

Creative Writing, when I was doing A Levels (I have an A Level in Creative Writing'!) was part of 'English Language' - which dealt more with being creative - by which they simply meant writing from your imagination and creating something. It included poetry and mock newspapers and short stories, plays, novels etc. Creative Writing, to me anyway, is just an umbrella term for 'creating something from your imagination'.

Sorry I can't be more helpful!