Back in Time for Dinner/the Weekend/School

[Anita Bensoussane]

We're enjoying the latest installment in this enjoyable series, BACK IN TIME FOR SCHOOL - totally fascinating to see how education has completely altered in the last 100 years.

Aargh - I saw an advert for that series some weeks ago but then forgot all about it! I'll have to catch up with it on iPlayer.

I'm a great believer in 'living history' and have seen most of these BBC variations on the subject, starting with the dinner/ tea series; it would be a really great idea to have this sort of experience as a regular part of students' education but I suspect the 'exam factory' enthusiasts in authority would say it wasted time that could be spent on improving their schools' pass-rate for the league tables! It would give people a great sense of how fluid 'norms' of social experiences are in a fast-moving world and stimulate debate.

Do you mean that schools could provide similar experiences for their pupils (it could be expensive but may be doable, especially if centres were set up where children could go for a few weeks and be immersed in a project) or simply that these series could be viewed in the classroom? Even if the programmes were just watched in schools, they would be sure to spark curiosity, debate and further research.

This series on school life in particular helps to remind us that what seems 'normal procedure' today is in reality an extremely recent creation and things used to be a lot different - 'the past is a foreign country, they do things differently there' to quote from L P Hartley's novel 'The Go Between' (one of my favourites - perhaps LPH should be in the 'top significant 100 authors' list?).

The Go-Between is a favourite of mine too, Tim, and I've remembered that quotation ever since my first reading.

[timv]

I was thinking of both possibilities - ie both watching on TV and participating in such experiments themselves - Anita. The TV participants seemed to enjoy themselves. Perhaps this could be a new use for some unused traditional school buildings , as a sort of 'field studies' centre for trips for those students not tied up with exam 'cramming' and revision. (Mostly for winter terms?) And also a source of employment for an acting troupe (I've seen actors 'act out' the roles of resident Victorian servants for the public at stately homes; this could be a model). It could also provide an enjoyable 'retirement activity' for former teachers who could provide the benefit of their experience, and modern teachers as well as students could see how times have changed and learn from how past problems were met .

The idea would be new so financially a bit of a gamble if private funds were sought for it, but if someone had a bit of vision...?

[Anita Bensoussane]

Sounds excellent, Tim!

I've now watched the first episode of Back in Time for School (Victorian/Edwardian eras) and it was very interesting. The teachers had real trouble staying in role when it came to superstitious or racist attitudes - e.g. forcing a left-handed child to use his right hand because using one's left hand meant being associated with Devil, or talking about the British Empire aiming to tame "savages" who were reluctant to become "civilised". Times have certainly changed for the better in many ways!

One of the teachers spoke of looking for a "nugget of gold" in each era - something that has been lost from education and ought perhaps to have been held onto. In this episode, the sewing lesson proved unexpectedly valuable as it provided an opportunity for quiet reflection and creativity. It was only for girls but one of the boys said he'd have liked the chance to do needlework too.

[Anita Bensoussane]

I've now watched two more episodes of Back in Time for School. In the "Between the Wars" episode I was pleased to see Esperanto being taught, as I completed an Esperanto correspondence course as a teenager. The person who invented Esperanto (Polish doctor L. L. Zamenhof) wished to create a language that could be used worldwide, aiding communication and therefore helping to increase understanding and foster peaceful relations. A good idea, coming in the wake of the First World War, but Esperanto is very much inspired by European languages and therefore not as accessible for nations whose tongues are very different. Also, it has never caught on in a big way even within Europe - perhaps partly because its lack of national identity makes it feel rather clinical.

By the way, when I learnt about the two World Wars as a youngster (mainly from books and TV programmes), I wasn't fully aware how short the gap of 21 years (between the ending of the First and the beginning of the Second) would have seemed to those who were caught up in both. The Great War had been referred to as "the war to end all wars" so the idea of a major conflict starting up again so soon must have been horrifying.

In the third episode of Back in Time for School (late 1940s and 1950s) it was interesting to hear about the advent of the 11+ examination, which offered members of the working class the chance of social mobility but also caused divisions within the working class (and may actually have been of most benefit to the middle class). Rote-learning was a feature of grammar school lessons at that time but there were also opportunities to practise public speaking and take on positions of responsibility, as grammar school pupils were being prepared to go into leadership roles (perhaps after studying at university first). Although grammar schools were run along traditional lines, society was changing and young people had more freedom outside school with the coming of "teen culture" (pop music, milk bars, etc.) A fascinating period with quite a lot of tension between the traditional and the progressive.

Incidentally, I enjoyed seeing the projector that was used in the 1950s lessons. Projectors like that were still being used in the 70s and 80s when I was at school.

[Anita Bensoussane]

I watched the two latest episodes of Back in Time for School with interest. The 1960s one concentrated on Secondary Moderns, where most children went if they didn't pass the 11+. Although they were regarded as lower-status schools, the best of them appear to have been innovative, practical and rather exciting. The idea of offering a semi-vocational education and teaching subjects like Construction, Rural Studies, Office Skills and Driving (the motor industry was booming at the time and required workers who had an understanding of cars) wasn't a bad one. I believe some areas of the country had Technical Schools as well as Grammars and Secondary Moderns but the television programme didn't go into that and I'm not sure exactly how those schools fitted in.

What was dispiriting was that there was still a great deal of gender segregation. That limited the opportunities of girls in particular, who were generally expected to go into retail or secretarial work. I was also taken aback by the statement that over half of Secondary Modern pupils left school with no qualifications at all. Crumbs - I hadn't realised that! Was there no accreditation for the practical skills they learnt? If accreditation was available, maybe not all the schools were equipped to deliver a sufficiently rigorous curriculum and therefore couldn't get pupils to the required level? Also, did children who made great strides academically get the chance to sit O Levels or transfer to a Grammar School? I'd like to have heard more about that kind of thing.

The same advice about preparing for a nuclear attack was still being given out in schools in the early 1980s, though at my school we just read about it rather than acting it out. Also, we still had gender segregation for PE - though not for any other subjects. Girls never got to do football and boys never got to do netball and hockey.

The 1970s episode was fascinating as I was at primary school (infants and juniors) in the 1970s, going up to secondary school (a comprehensive as featured in the programme) in 1981. As mentioned in the programme, there was no National Curriculum back then - and no Ofsted inspections or League Tables either. When I was in infants and juniors there was a great deal of emphasis on self-expression and creativity so we did a lot of Art, Craft and Creative Writing and we sometimes sang pop songs - as well as hymns - in assembly (Top of the World, I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing, Little Boxes...). I remember singing Kumbaya too.

It was interesting to see the Commerce class in the programme and the flight role-play, with pupils taking on the roles of pilot, co-pilot, passengers, etc. As one girl commented, they were treated like professionals and it felt like "proper preparation for work." We also saw children learning to play golf and chilling out in a cosy room filled with batik-type fabrics and lava lamps. I must admit we never had anything like that at my comprehensive (1981 - 1988), which was more traditional in its approach and in the subjects it offered (certainly not as libertarian as my infant and junior schools). We did, however, learn about protest songs - though we weren't encouraged to pen our own - and we had whole-class discussions on topics like the Falklands War or nuclear weapons. That sort of thing, where we were invited to share our opinions, ask questions and find out more for ourselves, enthused me and I've never forgotten those lessons.

It was a pity, really, that my school didn't offer more activities that felt related to real life. We had Woodwork and Metalwork, but instead of making practical items like chairs we made egg-racks and keyrings. Home Economics lessons were too short and too infrequent, so a cushion cover I was making had to be finished off at home. A lot of the preparation for cookery also had to be done at home in advance as it was always a mad rush in the lesson to get everything finished in the time allowed. We certainly didn't prepare dinner for the whole school, which would have involved great precision and timing and would have felt much more "real" and satisfying. As for Science, we were merely spoon-fed and I found it boring. The Discovery Method that was discussed in the programme would have suited me much more and would probably have made me realise much earlier on in life that the world of science is amazing!

I hadn't heard of the Schools' Action Union before so that was eye-opening. I recall an episode of Grange Hill in which pupils staged a sit-in to protest against having to wear school uniform. Children at my school never went on strike but a lot of the teachers did around 1985-6, to the detriment of my O Level grades.

The mentions of school discos, the tannoy system and Grange Hill struck a chord - and it was great to hear ELO's Mr. Blue Sky playing in the background at one point! My comprehensive school also had a tuck shop and even an ice-cream van, but I never bought any sweets or ice-creams as I saved most of my pocket money for buying books!

The programme showed a clip of a 1970s teacher saying that he thought education was about promoting a desire to learn rather than about imparting a body of knowledge. Personally I'd say that both are important, just as both academic and practical skills are important.

A great series and I'm looking forward to the 1980s episode!

[Daisy]

I believe some areas of the country had Technical Schools as well as Grammars and Secondary Moderns but the television programme didn't go into that and I'm not sure exactly how those schools fitted in.

In the area I lived in, in Kent, the town had a technical school and those children who had gone to the Secondary Modern school had the opportunity to transfer to the technical school at 13, if they showed promise. My brother-in-law was one of these and he ended up first working in a bank and then a building society where he was eventually the manager, so in his case, the scheme suited him well.

[Boatbuilder]

What was dispiriting was that there was still a great deal of gender segregation. That limited the opportunities of girls in particular, who were generally expected to go into retail or secretarial work. I was also taken aback by the statement that over half of Secondary Modern pupils left school with no qualifications at all. Crumbs - I hadn't realised that! Was there no accreditation for the practical skills they learnt? If accreditation was available, maybe not all the schools were equipped to deliver a sufficiently rigorous curriculum and therefore couldn't get pupils to the required level? Also, did children who made great strides academically get the chance to sit O Levels or transfer to a Grammar School? I'd like to have heard more about that kind of thing.

Where I went to school in Crosby, a northern suburb of Liverpool, in the late 50's/early 60's there were three secondary schools. One mixed gender, one boys' and one girls' - although the latter two had been just one mixed gender school until about the mid 50's when the new school was opened which became the girls' school, with the boys losing out staying in the old school (eventually demolished late 70's after I had moved from the area). As well as those there were six grammar schools two C-of-E (one of each gender) two Roman Catholic - again one of each - and there was Merchant Taylors (again one of each) although that was an independent school which was and still is, a 'fee-paying' school, although it does offer some places through scholarships.

At a guess, I would say that about 25% of pupils at the all-boys secondary which I chose to go to, went on to take GCE's at the time I was there. I don't know what the indicated figure was in the program you refer to as I haven't been watching them. However, from what I remember of the time, there seemed to be many pupils who just didn't seem to be interested in learning at all which wasn't, in my opinion, any reflection on the quality of the teaching staff of the day. (You can take a horse to water....etc.) As well as the GCE's, there was another secondary certificate which could be taken if you weren't considered of adequate standard for the GCE in some subjects and that was called the ULCI certificate. (Union of Lancashire & Cheshire Institutes). From the name, this was obviously more of a local examining board but I don't know if similar options were offered elsewhere in the country, although I would have thought there would be.

I don't believe there were any other types of accreditation in those days based on your in-class performances, neither was I ware of any pupils having the opportunity to transfer to grammar schools. However, I happened to have been born in the baby-boom year of 1947 and the pass-levels at 11-plus had to be raised in 1958 (so my mother was informed by my primary school headmaster) as there were so many pupils vying for grammar school places that year, so I doubt there would have been little opportunity for anyone to transfer to a grammar school at a later date. Had that not been the case, mother was told I would have passed the 11-plus - as my sister had four years earlier.

[Anita Bensoussane]

Thanks, Daisy and John (Boatbuilder). It's interesting to hear more about different types of school and accreditation (or lack of).

By the time I was at comprehensive school, everyone was expected to sit exams at the age of 15-16. As a rough guide, pupils in Sets 1 and 2 would take O Levels and pupils in Set 3 would take CSEs.

[Katharine]

Anita, I haven't watched the programmes, so I was interested to read all about them.

Several comments caught my eye - firstly, my grandmother was born left handed, but was forced to learn to write with her right hand. I believe she had her knuckles rapped with a wooden ruler if she tried to write left handed. She did everything else left handed though and after leaving school at 13 became a tailoress which I assume she did left handed as she had a pair of left handed dress making scissors.

I hadn't realised it was only 21 years between the two wars, which is only a generation. I wonder how on earth my grandparents coped, I suppose they just had to grit their teeth and hope they'd come through it again.

The 11+ could potentially be divisive, I know of families where a son and daughter both passed, but only the son went to the grammar school as the family couldn't afford to kit two children out with a uniform and all the other bits and pieces they would need. The logic being that the girl would hopefully marry a man who could provide for her, whereas the son would need to get as good an education as possible so that he could support a wife and family one day. I also know of children who never even told their parents they had passed the 11+ as the knew they wouldn't be able to send them.

I believe my mother-in-law went to a technical college in Birmingham which concentrated on secretarial/office skills. Although I think she started off at a secondary modern and took another exam after the first year or so to decide which career route she would take.

Neither my parents took any formal qualifications - both left school the term after they turned 15. When I asked them how could potential employers choose the best candidates if they had no qualifications, they said back in the 1950s it wasn't a problem. You'd hear of a job, often through friends or family, or possibly the school, go along for a interview/chat and if the employer liked you (or you'd been recommended by someone) you started work. Jobs were pretty easy to come by back then, so the children didn't have the pressure that modern youngsters have. Although it may have been different in other parts of the country.

I think if people wanted to get formal qualifications such as City and Guilds, they were either trained up as part of their job/apprenticeship or went to evening classes.

The 1970s episode would have been been my era - I had Commerce lessons, very useful they were too, they taught me things like how to write a cheque. I also remember most of the songs you mentioned singing at Primary School - nowadays they mostly seem to sing pop songs in school concerts - the lyrics of some I don't feel appropriate for that age group.

[timv]

The gender segregation was still apparent at my Sussex grammar school in the early-mid 1970s, at least in non-academic subjects. I have no idea how much was organised at county level by the education board and how much was left to the (old-fashioned) Headmaster and/or was dependant on what teachers were available, but it was considered inappropriate for boys to do any cookery and this (as 'Domestic Science') was strictly for the girls only. All boys initially had to do woodwork whether they were any good at it or not - I wasn't and the lessons were rather embarrassing - the teacher was a bully who liked to publicly ridicule boys who were no good at it. He was a first-class rugby coach so the Head wouldn't hear a word against him, but later a more sympathetic Metalwork teacher arrived and I could transfer to those classes. Male cookery was still banned c. 1976. PE was initially segregated but by the mid-1970s mixed swimming and Badminton/ Tennis was allowed; the Head also initially refused to let boys do hockey or football as only rugby was seen as appropriate.

I did not have much idea what went on at the secondary modern half of post-11 education in Sussex (there were no technical schools that I recall), apart from a few stories from some friends' siblings who had failed the '11 plus' and went there. At least the top 'set' of pupils at secondary modern did 'O' Levels at 16 rather than CSE, as there was a substantial influx of sec-modern pupils who had passed 'O' Levels at 16 to the Grammar School for the final 2 years there to do 'A' Levels; these made up for the fact that perhaps a quarter of the Grammar's pupils still left school at 16. The 1970s episode of the TV series was a revelation to me of what the classes like 'Commerce' at the sec. modern were like, as I had only heard them mentioned; the discoes and the greater free expression were spot-on, and crept into my school around 1974-5 with a batch of younger teachers but the older ones were still using 1950s methods. One of our more earnest younger teachers who tried to get everyone to indulge in uninhibited debate of social issues in an 'unstructured' lesson was met with a very awkward reaction and silence, from people used to doing what they were told.

I know the series could only cover the experiences of the majority, but there was just as glaring an educational and social gap in the 1970s between the state system and the public (ie private) schools. Some of those pupils from our primary school who transferred to a local public school (rich in resources but with a poor academic record) at 11 were discouraged from keeping up friendships with those who went to state school by their parents; the more 'socially elevated' fee-paying school was seen as a better one despite mostly having poorer teaching and less exam passes. Enid's Angela and Prudence at St Clare's had plenty of real life equivalents.

[Anita Bensoussane]

Thanks, Katharine and Tim. It's fascinating to hear people's stories - and the experiences of family members.

Neither my parents took any formal qualifications - both left school the term after they turned 15. When I asked them how could potential employers choose the best candidates if they had no qualifications, they said back in the 1950s it wasn't a problem. You'd hear of a job, often through friends or family, or possibly the school, go along for a interview/chat and if the employer liked you (or you'd been recommended by someone) you started work. Jobs were pretty easy to come by back then, so the children didn't have the pressure that modern youngsters have. Although it may have been different in other parts of the country.

I think if people wanted to get formal qualifications such as City and Guilds, they were either trained up as part of their job/apprenticeship or went to evening classes.

Yes, that fits with what I've heard and read. Very different from today!

At least the top 'set' of pupils at secondary modern did 'O' Levels at 16 rather than CSE, as there was a substantial influx of sec-modern pupils who had passed 'O' Levels at 16 to the Grammar School for the final 2 years there to do 'A' Levels; these made up for the fact that perhaps a quarter of the Grammar's pupils still left school at 16.

Thanks, Tim. It's good to know that at least some Secondary Moderns offered pupils more opportunities than the TV programme suggested.

[Katharine]

I'm currently reading a book by Angela Brazil which was first published in 1904. It mentions that the girls go to the local high school and their brother to the grammar school - neither of which are really what their father would wish for his children, but he can't afford anything else. I'm wondering if school wasn't free back then?

The boy is about 8, and is struggling to learn all the names of the books in the Old Testament, (which I believe is about 40). His sister is trying to help him, but he finds it difficult to remember them all, especially in the correct order, so is tempted to stop trying and just accept the caning he'll get for not knowing them all.

I know it is only a story, but I'm sure it was reflecting attitudes from that time. It seems incredible that a small child would physically punished for failing to remember such a long list.

[Rob Houghton]

The 1970s episode was fascinating as I was at primary school (infants and juniors) in the 1970s, going up to secondary school (a comprehensive as featured in the programme) in 1981. As mentioned in the programme, there was no National Curriculum back then - and no Ofsted inspections or League Tables either. When I was in infants and juniors there was a great deal of emphasis on self-expression and creativity so we did a lot of Art, Craft and Creative Writing and we sometimes sang pop songs - as well as hymns - in assembly (Top of the World, I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing, Little Boxes...). I remember singing Kumbaya too.


I hadn't heard of the Schools' Action Union before so that was eye-opening. I recall an episode of Grange Hill in which pupils staged a sit-in to protest against having to wear school uniform. Children at my school never went on strike but a lot of the teachers did around 1985-6, to the detriment of my O Level grades.

My primary school, which I attended roughly the same years as Anita - just one year below - was very much the same, with an emphasis on creativity, creative writing, clay modelling, balsa wood modeling, painting etc. I was amongst the more artistic in our class and four or five of us would get out of lessons because we were asked to paint big mural scenes on the walls at the end of the assembly hall of a harvest scene etc.

We also did a 'lesson' of country dancing each week, had end of term concerts, end of term exhibitions of our craft work, which coincided with 'parents evenings' and every class performed a play at the end of the summer term. It was a wonder we had time for maths or history and geography lessons, but we covered everything - it just seemed a lot more leisurely and enjoyable than the more structured lessons of today.

We also sang hymns in assembly and many other songs in our weekly 'singing sessions' with a pianist. We sang songs like Supercalifragilistic, Midnight (from Cats), Any Dream Will Do (from Joseph), Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, Edelweiss (from The Sound of Music) and The Streets of London, etc. We also did a thing called 'Singing Together' where we sang to music on a tape recorder - an old 'reel to reel' machine - songs like Peanuts, The Gypsy Rover and There were three sisters beyond the sea.


In my secondary school, the pupils did go on strike - in protest to the teacher strikes. Our excuse was that we wanted to learn, and the frequent teacher strikes were preventing us doing so - but in reality I think it was just a good excuse to skip lessons. I joined in on the first day - when half the school refused to go in for lessons and we waved placards by the main gate. We were even featured on the local news, with TV cameras coming round and some pupils were interviewed! The strike went on about three days but by the final day only a handful of hard-line pupils remained. The rest of us went back to the warm classrooms! Great to be a part of it though, as it was an experience to be remembered!

[Anita Bensoussane]

Interesting to hear that you took part in a pupils' strike, Rob!

I'm currently reading a book by Angela Brazil which was first published in 1904...

...The boy is about 8, and is struggling to learn all the names of the books in the Old Testament, (which I believe is about 40). His sister is trying to help him, but he finds it difficult to remember them all, especially in the correct order, so is tempted to stop trying and just accept the caning he'll get for not knowing them all.

I know it is only a story, but I'm sure it was reflecting attitudes from that time. It seems incredible that a small child would physically punished for failing to remember such a long list.

I agree that it sounds terribly unfair but I too imagine pupils in some schools would have received canings for that kind of thing back then and would have been labelled lazy. It probably wouldn't have been acknowledged that some children might have put in a lot of effort yet still find such a task difficult.

Watching the 1980s episode of Back in Time for School earlier this evening took me back to my own schooldays, as I started at the local comprehensive in 1981. I stayed out of trouble but heard of other pupils being caned every so often (it always seemed to be boys rather than girls who were subjected to corporal punishment). I remember well the fruit-shaped rubbers with a sickly-sweet "fruity" smell, crimped hair, funky plastic jewellery and leg warmers! I didn't much like the emphasis on business and technology in the curriculum as I preferred creative writing and literature. Unfortunately, at my school we had a lot of "chalk and talk" and spoon-feeding in subjects like Geography, History and Science so I felt next to no enthusiasm for them. It was only later in life, through travelling and talking to people and reading and watching educational TV programmes, that I realised how interesting those subjects could be! We didn't have problem-solving or Robotics, which might well have appealed, and we only touched computers a couple of times in about 1985 (even then, they didn't work properly).

Despite the rioting, the Falklands War, the teachers' strikes, the high unemployment figures, the negative attitudes towards homosexuality and the 'AIDS - Don't Die of Ignorance' campaign, the bright clothes and pop music gave the decade a feeling of life and jollity. Watching the programme, I enjoyed seeing Nik Kershaw and hearing songs from other artists of the time, including Sweet Dreams by Eurythmics, Don't You Want Me? by The Human League and True by Spandau Ballet.

Although I saw technology becoming increasingly important in the 1980s, I had no idea how quickly things would progress regarding computers, robots, etc. - though I was always fascinated by Tomorrow's World and watched it through much of the 70s and 80s.

[Rob Houghton]

So many good - and bad - memories of the 1980's and my comprehensive school days! Yes - I guess our lessons were more 'chalk and talk' - but in a way I enjoyed that! I know some pupils do benefit from this sort of teaching and others don't. I used to love drawing diagrams of King Henry VIII's wives etc, or diagrams describing Islam in RE or diagrams showing how an oxbow lake is formed in Geography.

The 1980's were a colourful and hopeful time, despite the worries about AIDS, as Anita says - scary - in fact most people were terrified because no one really knew all the facts and imagined you could catch it off toilet seats etc. The fashions - I remember having my hair in a 'flick' style lol and having a Harrington jacket etc.

Biscuit shaped rubbers and scented felt pens and scented rubbers - remember them all! Plus of course Rubic's cubes etc and I also had a snake. My sister's boyfriend had a ZX Spectrum - and that was the first time I'd ever seen a computer. We played 'Dungeons and Dragons' on it!

Technology has come on such a long way since the 1980's...but I'm not entirely sure that's always a good thing. Obesity has come on a long way as well - because people are so sedentary now. Who walks home from school any more?!

Talking of technology - I can still recall the thrill of buying my first video tape and watching it on an old (secondhand) top-loading video player in about 1985. Wow! I could hardly believe that we could watch Hollywood movies on TV whenever we wanted! I still have the first video I bought - being a fan of old movies even then - Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers in 'Follow the Fleet' - I was a nerd even then lol.

For me the 1980's were a time of creative writing - I did a LOT! Also of poem writing - anti bomb, anti fox hunting! Also the joys of watching Treasure Hunt with Anneka Rice! What a great TV programme! It was brilliant to travel round the country seeing shots of places we might have visited, and great aerial shots too - quite modern for its time.