Learning Welsh (and Other Languages)

[IceMaiden]

Oops sorry, I didn't read the date of the post and assumed it was recent as the thread was up at the top of the page. I'm sure Floragod has long found the answer!

[Courtenay]

I hope so too — we haven't seen Floragord here for quite a long time. I hope she's OK! I used to enjoy her contributions.

[Boatbuilder]

I think if you read the subsequent posts by Daisy, myself and herself, Floragord was already on the right track.

[Courtenay]

Living only an hour's drive from the Welsh border as I now do, I still haven't learned to speak any substantial amount of Welsh (don't have the time to work on it at present! ), but I do enjoy it when I hear the language spoken and I try to make sure I know the correct pronunciation of place names and any Welsh words I do happen to use. In my experience so far, too, most English people in these parts also go for at least a reasonable approximation of the Welsh pronunciation when they say a Welsh place name. Fair enough, after all.

So I was more than a little stunned when, on Classic FM earlier today, one of the presenters (I'll be kind and not say which one) read out a message sent in by a listener in Llandudno — which this presenter went and blatantly pronounced "Clan-dud-no" ("dud" to rhyme with "mud" in a standard Southern English (or Australian) accent — not even to rhyme with "good" as it might in some Northern accents).

It should, of course, be something much more like "Hhlan-did-no". I know many native English speakers can't manage the Welsh "ll" sound (I can, but I've practised it — it isn't that hard), but turning it into a "cl" sound is way off the mark — and if you know how Cymru (Welsh for Wales, of course) is pronounced, then you know the "u" in Welsh spelling is pretty much an "i" or "ee" sound. Well, maybe the average English person doesn't know that, but I would have thought a radio presenter would... (Wouldn't be surprised if she pronounces Cymru as "Sim-roo", while she's at it.)

I mean, given that England itself is full of place names whose correct pronunciation isn't exactly obvious from the spelling, I just would have thought there'd be a bit more respect — at least among professional broadcasters — for the correct pronunciation of place names in the other native languages of Britain. If only I had contact with a whole army of rabid radical Welsh speakers — which I haven't, but I'm sure there are some out there — I would now call on them to go around deliberately pronouncing Gloucester as "Glue-ses-ter", Worcester as "War-ses-ter", Hereford as "Hear-ford", Reading as "Reeding", Southwark as "South-walk", Greenwich as "Green-witch", and the list could go on and on. Just for fun, of course.

[IceMaiden]

Don't fret about it Courtenay, every radio presenter I've ever heard pronounces it clan-dud-no . The U sound in Welsh is like saying the 'y' part of 'syrup' slightly drawn out not like the 'uh' sound as in an English U so I can well see why people not familiar with it get stuck. To confuse the issue even more, the Y in Welsh sounds like both the English U and the Welsh U!

[Courtenay]

Don't fret about it Courtenay, every radio presenter I've ever heard pronounces it clan-dud-no .

Even in Wales??

The U sound in Welsh is like saying the 'y' part of 'syrup' slightly drawn out not like the 'uh' sound as in an English U

True — I knew that too, but I figured it was easier to skip the explanation and just call it "pretty much an 'i' or 'ee' sound", which is what it sounds like to English speakers who aren't that familiar with Welsh pronunciation.

so I can well see why people not familiar with it get stuck. To confuse the issue even more, the Y in Welsh sounds like both the English U and the Welsh U!

Oh, that drives me crazy. Most of the rest of Welsh spelling is phonetic once you know what each letter or combination of letters usually sounds like, but the two totally different pronunciations of "y", I just can't get my head around. Even in the famous song Ar Hyd y Nos (All Through the Night to English speakers), "Hyd" is pronounced something like "hid" (I know, again, really more like the "y" in "syrup" ), and yet the next word — "y" on its own, meaning "the" — makes an "uh" sound. But when I feel like whinging about that, I just remind myself of how many million times worse English is when it comes to inconsistencies between spelling and pronunciation, and I quickly bite my tongue!!

[IceMaiden]

I've never heard a Welsh radio programme( I know, that's shocking!) so I can't comment but all the English ones I've heard do. I've also heard it pronounced 'lan-ded-no'

Yes the different y sound confuses and catches out many! Even more so when both are in the same word like 'mynydd' (mountain)! That's just cruel .

After thinking about it I can't think of any other English word but the 'y' in syrup that sounds like a Welsh U .

I think both are guilty of being equally confusing in their own way! The pronounciation of u/y in Welsh is the equivalent of door/poor in English!