English Grammar, Spelling and Vocabulary

[Fiona1986]

The fact that I, as a non-English speaker and English is my third language could understand English spoken by the Southeastern English speakers very clearly speaks volume.

Yes, it says that you are far more familiar with those accents and find them easier to understand. If you had moved to Scotland and learned English there you'd understand Glaswegians just fine I bet!

[Rob Houghton]

Being from up north - sort of - I dislike all those 'long vowels' such as 'grarse' and 'parse' and Irarq and barth, tarsk and barsk etc.

If grass is 'grarse' and pass is 'parse' then why don't people say 'barsic' instead of 'basic' or indeed, as Boris Johnson called it, 'Glarstonbury'...?

[Fiona1986]

I see this argument online all the time, about how names/words are pronounced.

Most recently it was Francis/Frances - which could be Fran-cis or Fran-cees, or FraRn-cis, or FraRn-cees...

I get that some people pronounce things with a long A but how does the R creep in!?

[Katharine]

Why do so many people nowadays appear to be unable to pronounce 'th' - instead saying it as an 'f'. I fought so, at least I fink I do. It now seems universal, whereas at one time it was consigned to Londoners. We used to have a forum member who had as his signature, if you pronounce thick as fick, then you probably are.

I think 'th' will eventually disappear from our language. It will be replaced with 'f' and 'd'. I've noticed that the children I hear read who are from an Indian background, pretty much all say 'd', and however much I try to correct them with 'th', they just don't seem able to pronounce it. I'm guessing they learn English from their parents, and by the time they reach school age, their vocal chords have formed in such a way they can't pronounce it. The same way that the English mostly can't roll our 'r' the way the French do.

Interesting comment about the 'r' in Francis. I always say it that way, and hadn't given it any thought until I met someone with a son called Fran and his mother told me it was short for Francis. She is Irish so pronounces it Fran-cis, so Fran is a logical short form. However as I pronounce it FraRn-cis, then the short form would be FraRn which would probably sound very odd. I wonder how our own Francis says it?

[Rob Houghton]

'Frarncis' - another unnecessarily long vowel!!

I would always say 'Fran-cis'.

This is a good example regards the long vowel...people might say 'Frarncis' but you never hear 'Jarnice' or 'Jarmes'. I would also say 'Angela' rather than 'Arngela'

Just out of interest...do you pronounce your name 'Kartherine' or 'Karthryn' or 'Kath-er-in' - which I would most likely say?

[Domino]

I don't really agree with what Katharine says either.

Whether names are pronounced with a long or short 'a', is largely down to regional differences.

I also think that the most common shortened form of Francis is actually Frank (think of Sinatra). [I know what you're going to say, he was of Italian origins. However, he was christened Francis and not Francisco. The family name was actually Sinatrasi, but his father dropped the final syllable when he emigrated to the USA.)

In my experience, if someone is called Frances (with a long 'a' or a short 'a'), the shortened form is always Fran or Frannie (with a short 'a'). If you were to apply Katharine's logic, James would not be shortened to Jim but Jam, and Margaret would never be Peggy! Someone called Florence can be shortened to Flo, but you would never say Flo-rence.

Katharine, your argument is what is known as a non-sequitur (it doesn't folow).

In England you often hear Caitlin pronounced 'Kate-lin', but the strict Irish way to pronounce it is Kathleen, just as Sile is pronounced Sheila. And how do you pronounce Fionnuala? Strictly it's Feenala, but you also hear Finn-ula.

Katie always gets annoyed because people assume her name is short for Katherine. It isn't, she was christened Katie. By coincindence, so was my maternal grandmother and one of my Mum's half-sisters.

Dave

[pete9012S]

I've followed all the last posts very carefully,but I'm still not sure if it's David Bowie or David Bowie????

[Rob Houghton]

I call him David Bough-ee

[pete9012S]

Sorted!

Thanks Robért.

[Courtenay]

I've always pronounced Bowie to rhyme with "showy" — which it turns out is how he pronounced it himself, but as he admitted in an interview some years ago, even he wasn't quite sure any more...

[pete9012S]

Cheers Courtus - now there's a blast from the pastus!!!

I love malapropisms and always find them hilarious and good fun.
But, being pedantic and grammatically correct has it's jolly moments too of course!

[Rob Houghton]

I always loved Hilda Ogden's 'Muriel'

[Courtenay]

Cheers Courtus - now there's a blast from the pastus!!!

Ooer, don't.

[Domino]

With regard to the name Bowie, it's even more confusing when pronounced Boo-ee like Jim Bowie, who gave his name to the bowie knife. (He died at the Alamo.)

Frank Bough always pronounced his name as Boff.

Dave

[Katharine]

I don't really agree with what Katharine says either.

Katharine, your argument is what is known as a non-sequitur (it doesn't folow).

Which part of what I said don't you agree with? I wasn't aware I had said anything that was an 'argument', I was just sharing some experiences I've come across about different pronunciations.

'Frarncis' - another unnecessarily long vowel!!

Just out of interest...do you pronounce your name 'Kartherine' or 'Karthryn' or 'Kath-er-in' - which I would most likely say?

I say 'Kathryn', and so does everyone I know apart from a Spanish lady who calls me 'Kath-er-in-. To be really pedantic, if someone wanted to say my name 'correct'y, then it should really be 'Kath-ar-in' as I don't have an 'er' in the middle. I suppose to find the proper way to say any word/name, then we'd need to go back to the origins of the name. So for example with my name, my mother thinks that my version of the name is the original one. If that is true, then pretty much no-one is saying it correctly, only my Spanish friend.