The Enid Blyton Society

Not sure I'd call 1948 "many decades before Narnia", seeing as The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe was first published in 1950... But that certainly confirms that C.S. Lewis was adapting an already well-established image of Father Christmas (or Santa Claus) when he wrote about him.

That reminds me, in J.R.R. Tolkien's Letters from Father Christmas, which he wrote and illustrated yearly for his children, he portrayed Father Christmas very recognisably as we know him today, from the first letter in 1920 to his young son John — right down to the red clothes trimmed with white fur and the house at the North Pole! So that typical imagery does go back a fair way. Here's what Tolkien wrote and drew in that first letter:



(Incidentally, Tolkien was later to ridicule his good friend C.S. Lewis for the latter's inclusion of Father Christmas in the first Narnia book. Considering he spent over 20 years "being" Father Christmas himself for his own children and creating these lovely and adventure-filled letters for them, it seems a bit ironic...)

     I seem to dimly remember reading many years ago that Tolkien's criticism was based not just on Lewis's use of Father Christmas as such, but on the idea that it jarred with the rest of the Narnian world Lewis had created - criticism that perhaps Tolkien didn't think applied to his own use of Father Christmas.

Regards, Michael.

Yes - what I really meant was the depictions were similar in previous decades!

MJE wrote: I seem to dimly remember reading many years ago that Tolkien's criticism was based not just on Lewis's use of Father Christmas as such, but on the idea that it jarred with the rest of the Narnian world Lewis had created - criticism that perhaps Tolkien didn't think applied to his own use of Father Christmas.

Yes, I've read something like that too. I guess he didn't think the same criticism applied to his own use of Father Christmas, or else didn't stop to think about it at all — by the time Lewis started writing The Lion, it was some years after the last of Tolkien's children had grown out of receiving letters from the North Pole. I just find it funny that Tolkien could spend so many years creating this whole imaginative world of Father Christmas and his friends and all their adventures (some of the letters get quite elaborate) for his young family, and yet take exception when a fellow author decided to introduce Father Christmas into his own fantasy world for children.

I wouldn't say Father Christmas "jars" too much with the rest of Narnia myself, although I know there have been other readers and critics who feel that way. Lewis uses plenty of other mythical figures and characters from our world in Narnia as well — fauns, dryads, centaurs, even Bacchus the wine-god! — and one could easily argue that if the children can step into Narnia from this world, why can't a magical figure like Father Christmas travel between different worlds as well? He only plays a very small role in the story (I know at least one screen adaptation of it dispenses with the Father Christmas scene altogether), and if nothing else, his appearance makes it absolutely certain that the Witch's power to make it "always winter and never Christmas" is coming to an end!

How did we get here from the endings of Famous Five books, by the way??

On Kirrin Island Again was the first FF book I read and the ending does seem pretty conclusive to it being the planned last book in the series. As for the endings where Enid speaks to us I never minded them as a child but they tended to irritate me in later life. Of course, as a child, I never wanted the books to end so when they did, it was rather disappointing.

MJE wrote:

Darrell71 wrote:I don't think I've ever thought about Enid breaking the fourth wall until now, so I can't quite say it's bothered me. But I definitely know I wouldn't do it in my own stories, unless I was writing it for very small children who are quite often being read it out rather than reading it themselves. In that case, I think it's a very nice touch, but as an author, you can't quite predict that, can you?

     Well, it may be in very small way, but I think it is definitely breaking the fourth wall.

I absolutely agree, I just meant that I hadn't ever thought about it.

I certainly don't mind the endings of books 'breaking the fourth wall' - but ending each chapter that way is pretty aggravating!

I've always quite enjoyed Enid's "breaking the fourth wall" interjections, as I think I've said. But I agree, it'd be pretty annoying if she ended every chapter that way (I haven't read any book where she takes it that far).

The one book where its really noticeable is 'Look Out Secret Seven' - where a good half of the chapters end by 'breaking the fourth wall' - and also The Hidey-Hole and a few other of her later books.

Courtenay wrote:I wouldn't say Father Christmas "jars" too much with the rest of Narnia myself, although I know there have been other readers and critics who feel that way. Lewis uses plenty of other mythical figures and characters from our world in Narnia as well — fauns, dryads, centaurs, even Bacchus the wine-god! — and one could easily argue that if the children can step into Narnia from this world, why can't a magical figure like Father Christmas travel between different worlds as well?

     Yes, I think it's recognized that the Narnia books draw eclectically from many different sources - so I never saw why Father Christmas was any more problematical than any of the other sources, and it never bothered me.

Courtenay wrote:How did we get here from the endings of Famous Five books, by the way?? :lol: :wink:

     It happens all the time, at least on healthy forums. I've occasionally come across places where moderators try to police discussion they considered off-topic, and it just creates acrimony and an unpleasant climate and people walking out - probably to go and tell their friends of similar interests, "Don't go there - it's not nice".

Regards, Michael.

MJE wrote:      It happens all the time, at least on healthy forums. I've occasionally come across places where moderators try to police discussion they considered off-topic, and it just creates acrimony and an unpleasant climate and people walking out - probably to go and tell their friends of similar interests, "Don't go there - it's not nice".

I know... I've been writing on forums for years. I was asking the question out of amusement, not bafflement (hence the laugh and wink emoji).

Courtenay wrote:...(hence the laugh and wink emoji).

But he didn't see those!

I'm slowly beginning to realise why some people don't get my sarcastic humour, if we can turn the emojis off! I didn't know we could do that!

Darrell71 wrote:

Courtenay wrote:...(hence the laugh and wink emoji). :wink:

But he didn't see those! :shock: :wink:

     Oh, I see them when they are posted - by "switching off their functionality" earlier, I just meant that nothing I post can contain them. But when I do see them I usually don't know what they are meaning to convey - which will probably account for subtle points I may have missed in others' posts which rely only on emojis, as I think one or two comments have already alluded to.

Regards, Michael.

We've got this emoji conversation running on two threads now!
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