Famous Five Books - The Endings

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Re: Famous Five Books - The Endings

Post by Rob Houghton »

Moonraker wrote:
Daisy wrote:I would go along with that Rob... I disliked the intrusion of the author into the story in that way and it did irritate me as a child
I must disagree, I have always rather liked it. To me, it felt as though Enid was telling the story to me, personally, and no-one else. Although more than capable of reading, himself, my grandson loves me to read to him at bedtime. When we get to such a part of the book/end of a chapter/story where this happens, he always answers - as if talking to Enid. I find it most touching.
I must reiterate that it didn't annoy me in any way as a child - in fact I loved it and thought all books should be written like that - and I wrote most of my stories in a similar way as a kid. :-D Its only now I'm not so keen...but the technique I'm talking about only happens in about five or six of Enid's later books.

I'm not talking about the short stories, where Enid might finish with something like 'well, it really served them right, didn't it?' etc - I like those endings. I'm talking purely about chapter endings where Enid tries to build suspense by talking to the main character. :-)
'Oh voice of Spring of Youth
hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

(E. Blyton, Sunday Times, 1951)



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Re: Famous Five Books - The Endings

Post by Rob Houghton »

As far as I can tell, having read a lot of Enid Blyton Christmas stories, Enid more often uses 'Santa Claus' - which surprises me. Even in the original versions of stories from the 1940's and 50's she appears to use 'santa Claus' and also in 'The Christmas Book'.
pete9012S wrote:I thought this quote from The Independent was interesting:
Good writing always stands the test of time and trends but, in the eyes of many critics, Blyton's continued success is an enigma because her work is considered to be exceptionally poor. Hollow plots, repetitive storylines, two-dimensional characters, limited vocabulary and bland, unliterary penmanship are all evident throughout her 700-plus books. [/i][/b]


http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-enter ... 04007.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

lashings of whipped cream..

Anyone know what book contains that phrase?
That quote from The Independent is surely not a modern quote, Pete? It sounds like something from the 1960's or 70's! I'm always really flummoxed when people suggest that Enid had a limited vocabulary, because its as if they've been reading different books to me. Enid uses many words that I had to ask the meaning of as a child, and sometimes I would have to look them up in a dictionary because even my parents didn't know the meaning of them! Even now I will read Enid's books and occasionally come across a word I'm not entirely sure of. I get the impression that anyone levelling this sort of criticism at Enid has only really read her noddy stories! :roll:
'Oh voice of Spring of Youth
hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

(E. Blyton, Sunday Times, 1951)



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Re: Famous Five Books - The Endings

Post by MJE »

Rob Houghton wrote:As far as I can tell, having read a lot of Enid Blyton Christmas stories, Enid more often uses 'Santa Claus' - which surprises me. Even in the original versions of stories from the 1940's and 50's she appears to use 'santa Claus' and also in 'The Christmas Book'.
     Well, well, well... that really, really surprises me. Makes me wonder if all my accumulated childhood memories are somehow fabricated or fake, and just feel real now.
Rob Houghton wrote:Enid uses many words that I had to ask the meaning of as a child, and sometimes I would have to look them up in a dictionary because even my parents didn't know the meaning of them!
     Stentorian (voice)... fusillade (of Timmy's barks)...
     Those two from the Famous Five immediately come to mind; I'm sure there are others, too.

Regards, Michael.
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Re: Famous Five Books - The Endings

Post by Rob Houghton »

MJE wrote:
Rob Houghton wrote:As far as I can tell, having read a lot of Enid Blyton Christmas stories, Enid more often uses 'Santa Claus' - which surprises me. Even in the original versions of stories from the 1940's and 50's she appears to use 'santa Claus' and also in 'The Christmas Book'.
     Well, well, well... that really, really surprises me. Makes me wonder if all my accumulated childhood memories are somehow fabricated or fake, and just feel real now.
It surprises me too, Michael, as when I was a child we only ever said 'Father Christmas' and I thought, as I got older, that 'Santa Claus' was more American than British. Seems I was wrong! :-)
'Oh voice of Spring of Youth
hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

(E. Blyton, Sunday Times, 1951)



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Re: Famous Five Books - The Endings

Post by MJE »

     I've heard different opinions about the Santa Claus/Father Christmas thing, too, so researching it may not shed a lot of light.
     I just started a new thread where I suggest we look for unusual words in Enid Blyton, following on from "stentorian", "fusillade".

Regards, Michael.
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Re: Famous Five Books - The Endings

Post by Rob Houghton »

MJE wrote:  
     I just started a new thread where I suggest we look for unusual words in Enid Blyton, following on from "stentorian", "fusillade".
Very good idea for a thread! I'm sure there are quite a few unusual words we could add to the list. :-)
'Oh voice of Spring of Youth
hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

(E. Blyton, Sunday Times, 1951)



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Re: Fourth wall; Father Christmas vs. Santa Claus.

Post by Courtenay »

MJE wrote:      But - on a completely different tangent - I'd like to ask this: in any Enid Blyton stories that deal with Christmas, how often does she name the mythical character "Santa Claus", and how often "Father Christmas"? Does she prefer one term over the other, or does she use the two about equally often? Do both names ever appear in the same story?
     I ask because, growing up in 1950s-1960s Australia, the character was always "Father Christmas", and it is only later that "Santa Claus" began to intrude and eventually almost completely swallowed up "Father Christmas", although I was always under the impression (without ever having really researched it in detail) that this was a new-fangled introduction from America. For this reason, I have always resisted it, and always refer to "Father Christmas", never "Santa Claus" or "Santa". (If you go and read the discussion pages for the Wikipedia articles on "Father Christmas" and "Santa Claus", you will learn that this is a red-hot, explosive topic very much bound up with politics, political correctness, and heated emotions - contribute at your own peril!)
     So it surprises me to see that there are Enid Blyton stories that refer to "Santa Claus".
     Can anyone shed any light on this?
     Am I mistaken that Santa Claus is mainly American, especially during the time Enid Blyton was writing?
I can't recall whether this comes into The Christmas Book or another story, but somewhere I'm pretty sure I picked up that Enid uses the name "Santa Claus" because it derives from St Nicholas, the patron saint of children. He became the gift-giving person at Christmas in some European traditions, particularly in Holland as "Sinterklaas", and the Dutch settlers took that tradition to America. On the other hand, I gather the idea of "Father Christmas" (under different names) comes originally from pagan / pre-Christian beliefs and traditions in Europe, and somewhere along the line those two characters became merged into one. So I think in Enid's case she usually (not always) uses the name Santa Claus because he's the Christian rather than pagan figure. But I can't remember where I got that from, so I could be off the mark here.
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Re: Famous Five Books - The Endings

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https://www.thoughtco.com/the-origins-o ... us-2562993" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Learn the history. Do research.

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Re: Famous Five Books - The Endings

Post by Rob Houghton »

Doing a search in The Cave, there are 54 results in short stories and poems (not sure if any titles are of the same story - I didn't check) in which Enid uses the name 'Santa Claus', while there are only 7 results for Father Christmas in short stories and poems. :-)
'Oh voice of Spring of Youth
hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

(E. Blyton, Sunday Times, 1951)



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Re: Famous Five Books - The Endings

Post by Stephen »

I've just read 'Plenty of Fun', and the ending made me smile. Almost as gloriously self-indulgent as the Secret Seven referring to the Famous Five, and Peter and Mollie referring to the Faraway Tree!
pete9012S wrote:Image
Is it just me, or does the child-friendly Mr. Pink-Whistle look strangely like notoriously child-loathing W.C. Fields in this picture?
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Re: Famous Five Books - The Endings

Post by MJE »

Stephen wrote:I've just read 'Plenty of Fun', and the ending made me smile. Almost as gloriously self-indulgent as the Secret Seven referring to the Famous Five, and Peter and Mollie referring to the Faraway Tree!
     I do know the book reasonably well, but can't recall what you are referring to in the ending. Can you please remind me about it? Is it a sly reference to some other Blyton book as a kind of self-promotion?

Regards, Michael.
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Re: Famous Five Books - The Endings

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MJE wrote:
Stephen wrote:I've just read 'Plenty of Fun', and the ending made me smile. Almost as gloriously self-indulgent as the Secret Seven referring to the Famous Five, and Peter and Mollie referring to the Faraway Tree!
I do know the book reasonably well, but can't recall what you are referring to in the ending. Can you please remind me about it? Is it a sly reference to some other Blyton book as a kind of self-promotion?
The policemen disappeared. Mr Elbur Wright beamed round happily, Berta on his knee.
‘Well, this is a very happy ending!’ he said. ‘And I can take my little Berta back with me after all!’
‘Oh no!’ wailed Berta, much to her father’s surprise.
‘What do you mean?’ he asked.
‘Gee, Pops, be a honey and let me stay on here,’ begged Berta. ‘These kids sure are wunnerful.’
‘WonDERful, wonDERful, wonDERful!’ chanted the others.
‘Of course let her stay on if she’d like to,’ said Aunt Fanny. ‘But as a girl this time, not a boy!’
George heaved a sigh of relief. That was all right then. She wouldn’t mind Berta as a girl, even though she was a silly girl!
‘Woof!’ said Timmy suddenly, and made everyone jump.
‘He says he’s jolly pleased you’re staying, Berta, because now Sally-dog will have to stay too,’ said Dick. ‘So he’ll have someone to play with as well!’
‘Shall we really send the sergeant a book about this adventure?’ said Anne. ‘Did you really mean it, Dick?’
‘Rather!’ said Dick. ‘Our fourteenth adventure - and may we have many more! What shall we call the book?’
‘I know!’ said George, at once. ‘I know! Let’s call it “FIVE HAVE PLENTY OF FUN”.’
Well, they did - and they hope you like it!
THE END
Also, when Jack is thrown out of the Secret Seven in one of their adventures, he, Susie and three other friends form a rival group called the Famous Five, after the "Five" books. And Peter and Mollie talk about having read the Faraway Tree and always wanting to meet the characters in it - and apparently Chinky has. I'm sure children of the time would have laughed at these little cross-references without taking them too seriously!
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Re: Famous Five Books - The Endings

Post by Courtenay »

Thanks for the very interesting link, Sixret. :D Incidentally, growing up in Australia in the 1980s, our family used both "Father Christmas" and "Santa Claus" pretty much interchangeably as the name of the Christmas gift-bringer (who always managed to get in even though our earlier house had the fireplace boarded up and the later one had far too narrow a chimney, and whose handwriting on our gift tags was suspiciously identical to Mum's... :mrgreen: )

Sorry, by the way, for dragging this conversation back a few steps — I've only been able to come in intermittently, as I was writing earlier on my lunch break at work. :wink: Michael, I just wanted to get back to this other point you raised (as a huge fan of Narnia myself)...
MJE wrote: And while there's no doubt now that "Santa Claus" is dressed in red and white, lives at the North Pole, is fat and white-bearded and jolly, and goes about in a sleigh pulled by reindeer, was "Father Christmas" similarly depicted? I recall that C. S. Lewis's "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe" includes Father Christmas, but I don't recall the description including any of those features I just attributed to Santa Claus.
Here's the paragraph in which Father Christmas appears — as you can see, he has some of those features but not all:
It was a sledge, and it was reindeer with bells on their harness. But they were far bigger than the Witch's reindeer, and they were not white but brown. And on the sledge sat a person whom everyone knew the moment they set eyes on him. He was a huge man in a bright red robe (bright as hollyberries) with a hood that had fur inside it and a great white beard that fell like a foamy waterfall over his chest. Everyone knew him because, though you see people of his sort only in Narnia, you see pictures of them and hear them talked about even in our world — the world on this side of the wardrobe door. But when you really see them in Narnia it is rather different. Some of the pictures of Father Christmas in our world make him look only funny and jolly. But now that the children actually stood looking at him they didn't find it quite like that. He was so big, and so glad, and so real, that they all became quite still. They felt very glad, but also solemn.

(The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, Chapter Ten — "The spell begins to break")
Back on track — great to see the new thread showing how Enid DIDN'T have a "limited" vocabulary at all!! Thanks, Michael. :D
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Re: Famous Five Books - The Endings

Post by MJE »

Courtenay wrote:Incidentally, growing up in Australia in the 1980s, our family used both "Father Christmas" and "Santa Claus" pretty much interchangeably as the name of the Christmas gift-bringer
     I guess this must have been the transitional period when Santa Claus was starting to oust Father Christmas, in Australia at least, but hadn't yet done so almost completely. I was born in 1954, so grew up with much earlier views of Father Christmas. Also, I suppose this could be something that varied by location, social class, and other factors - hence the different, conflicting opinions you sometimes read about the matter.
     It is sometimes said that the modern image of the character was invented by Coca-Cola during a 1930s advertising campaign; but apparently this is not true. I heard this discussed on the radio recently, and it seems that Coca-Cola did play a role in popularizing this image, but didn't invent it, as it had had some currency prior to that. It was also mentioned that the character's principal colour was green at some earlier point, rather than red. (I forget the details of when and where that was though - this obviously being something that can vary a lot by country.)
Courtenay wrote:Sorry, by the way, for dragging this conversation back a few steps — I've only been able to come in intermittently, as I was writing earlier on my lunch break at work. :wink:
     No worries - I never mind conversations going back to older points.
Courtenay wrote:Here's the paragraph in which Father Christmas appears — as you can see, he has some of those features but not all:
It was a sledge, and it was reindeer with bells on their harness. But they were far bigger than the Witch's reindeer, and they were not white but brown. And on the sledge sat a person whom everyone knew the moment they set eyes on him. He was a huge man in a bright red robe (bright as hollyberries) with a hood that had fur inside it and a great white beard that fell like a foamy waterfall over his chest. Everyone knew him because, though you see people of his sort only in Narnia, you see pictures of them and hear them talked about even in our world — the world on this side of the wardrobe door. But when you really see them in Narnia it is rather different. Some of the pictures of Father Christmas in our world make him look only funny and jolly. But now that the children actually stood looking at him they didn't find it quite like that. He was so big, and so glad, and so real, that they all became quite still. They felt very glad, but also solemn.
     Yes, I do recall that now you mention it, Courtenay. I thought I recalled the sledge and reindeer, albeit dimly (I haven't read the book for a while now), but I hadn't remembered the bright red, and so had wondered if Lewis devised his description before the idea arose that Father Christmas was dressed in red. However, clearly that idea was around in the 1950s, and Lewis felt quite happy to use it, too. His portrayal of Father Christmas as inducing solemnity more than jollity, though, shows that he was perfectly willing to depart from the normal portrayal if that didn't suit his story.
Courtenay wrote:Back on track — great to see the new thread showing how Enid DIDN'T have a "limited" vocabulary at all!! Thanks, Michael. :D
     You're welcome - I'm glad if I'm able to introduce a topic people find interesting.
     I'm not quite sure, to be honest, that one can make out a strong *opposite* case about Enid Blyton's vocabulary: that it was very wide and adventurous - but I have always thought the criticisms about the supposed paucity of her vocabulary were unfair, so I wanted to see if I could counteract it. However, in truth, if you can tell your story effectively, I don't really think it even matters much whether your vocabulary is narrow or wide. Perhaps telling a story effectively with mainly very ordinary words is a skill all of its own, and not to be denigrated. And clearly it shows that Enid Blyton does not try to create a fake sense of depth by hiding behind big or learned words. (Not that I'm opposed to those if they are used well, and are at least a bit better than equivalent ordinary words in the given situation.)
     However, I think there are critics who are only too ready to bring down Enid Blyton whenever they can find any excuse to do so. Perhaps less so now than at one point, but I dare say such people are still around even today.

Regards, Michael.
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Re: Famous Five Books - The Endings

Post by Rob Houghton »

Father Christmas was depicted as we know him now for many decades before Narnia - as in this colouring book from 1948 -

Image

and also in Disney's Silly Symphony from 1932 -

Image
'Oh voice of Spring of Youth
hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

(E. Blyton, Sunday Times, 1951)



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