What do you think about the fagging custom at St. Clare's?

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Tony Summerfield
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Re: What do you think about the fagging custom at St. Clare'

Post by Tony Summerfield »

At least in boys' boarding schools you weren't ever asked to act as dressers or for that matter to wash undies! :lol:
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Re: What do you think about the fagging custom at St. Clare'

Post by Ming »

The fagging custom still exists in American universities - Greek life!

Although "hazing" is officially banned and serious actions are taken when complaints are reported, initiation into fraternities and sororities often involves the brothers and sisters (as they're called - I don't know if people here are familiar with Greek life) getting the pledgers to do things like clean their houses, make their food etc. Some initiation customs are more brutal and involve physical violence, especially in fraternities. There was a series of incidents last term where a male was discovered in a woman's bedroom late at night, watching her sleep and if she woke up, he would say "sorry" and flee. The police suspected this was some hazing incident, because three people reported the exact same crime on the same day in the same neighbourhood.

New members also get to know existing members during a "dry week" when they don't drink, and a "wet week" when they're drinking every night - this is all in the midst of classes.

I hope the boarding school fagging wasn't this awful but if it was, oh well!
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Re: What do you think about the fagging custom at St. Clare'

Post by loveenidblyton »

Is this Greek life in college optional?
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Re: What do you think about the fagging custom at St. Clare'

Post by Ming »

It's optional. It's apparently also super hard to get in, I hear, especially into the "top ranked" ones. I personally don't know why anyone would choose to enter Greek life. A third of all students are in social fraternities and sororities. It's expensive and so cliquey.

Some universities in the US have banned Greek life altogether. Others, especially large universities like mine, haven't. Similarly sized universities have discussed banning Greek life too but had to scrap those plans because universities rely heavily on alumni donations, and many of the top donors are Greek.
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Re: What do you think about the fagging custom at St. Clare'

Post by floragord »

Tony Summerfield wrote:At least in boys' boarding schools you weren't ever asked to act as dressers or for that matter to wash undies! :lol:
A variety of my Uncles were at Fettes, and spent their junior years acting batmen on field trips, gutting fish and hanging game, laying fires and clearing out the grates for the prefects and on toughening-up trips on Skye, must admit teatrays and dresser were more in my line :? How interesting the old customs still prevail at some of the Ivy League (is that still the term?) colleges in the States!
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Re: What do you think about the fagging custom at St. Clare'

Post by MJE »

Anita Bensoussane wrote:It's strange because there's plenty of violence in current children's books yet it's not generally believed that the authors concerned are advocating violence in real life, or that their books should be rewritten.
     ... which makes you wonder, then, why such relatively low-level violence such as slapping has been ruthlessly purged from Enid Blyton.
     I have an idea why this might be, although don't in any way regard it as a proper justification for actually making these changes.
     The high levels of violence in modern novels may be committed by people such as criminals or others whom you would not expect to behave properly anyway - or, at the most, when done by supposedly more "proper" types of people like teachers or parents, those individual ones shown are clearly shown as abusive and not showing proper behaviour for those types of authority figures.
     But the beatings or slappings in Enid Blyton books are sometimes administered by authority figures who are *not* shown as abusive, but represented as proper examples of their type (e.g., Mr. Hilton and Mr. Lynton both supposedly caned their children at least once each, and seem to be presented in general as respectable, proper parents, even if rather cross and impatient).
     Is that possibly the reason for this apparent anomaly? In other words the acceptability of the violence is determined not only, or even mainly, by the level of violence, but by who administers it and their level of respectability in society generally.
     There may be flaws in my reasoning - it's just an idea that occurred to me on the spot, and doesn't account for why the beating in "The Mystery of the Secret Room" was changed, even though it came from men who were in no way respectable. (I still remember how I was chilled by that scene when I first read the book in 1967, aged 13, and when I recently saw the updated version quoted by Keith on his site, I thought it was very lame by comparison.)
Anita Bensoussane wrote:
MJE wrote:
Anita Bensoussane wrote:the Winston Churchill references in Missing Necklace being abbreviated,
Oh? What has old Sir Winston done to deserve that?
The modern edition still has a waxwork of Winston Churchill at the fair but the part about Bets admiring him and having a photo of him on display in her bedroom has been removed. I suppose it's because Winston Churchill is now just a name from history, whereas he was a popular statesman and public figure when Missing Necklace was first published.
     So whose photo did Bets have instead, and whom did she admire? Margaret Thatcher, for instance? Hmmm... she doesn't somehow seem a role model that would appeal to the kind and gentle Bets.

Regards, Michael.
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Re: What do you think about the fagging custom at St. Clare'

Post by MJE »

Ming wrote:The fagging custom still exists in American universities - Greek life!

Although "hazing" is officially banned and serious actions are taken when complaints are reported,
     I do seem to recall reading a shocking case a couple of years ago where someone was locked in a locker, and even worse things done, and the perpetrators went to prison. While I've spoken previously of my own experiences at school, which were bad to me at the time, this case was *far* worse than that - although I forget the details, except the locker bit. It was bad, though - very bad. (I vaguely recall they inserted some kind of substance into the locker through the door vents - which thankfully never happened to me, although the locker part did - although in a pranky context, not a really malicious one.)

     I occasionally wonder how I'd have fared if I'd been in a boarding school where things like fagging took place, and were generally accepted. Recalling how I was at the time, I think it's possible I might have gone along with it to some extent to keep out of trouble, but very unwillingly; but I also think it's very likely it would have later reached a point where I'd take no more, and very likely would refuse point-blank to comply, possibly with a lot of shouting and defiance, or throwing things around.
     I wonder what happened to kids who rebelled like that against the system. Crushed into oblivion, their spirit totally destroyed, I imagine - maybe damaged mentally for life.
     Hmmm... an idea to keep in mind for a possible future story I might one day write. It could get quite explosive and traumatic, I imagine.

Regards, Michael.
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Re: What do you think about the fagging custom at St. Clare'

Post by Rob Houghton »

My own personal theory about why certain 'violence' references have been removed from Enid's books is that they are now pretty much considered to be aimed at a younger audience - under 8, rather than slightly older, as when she wrote them. Most children would probably be considered 'too old' for Enid Blyton by the time they are 9 these days - and so the average age of reader of a Famous Five, for example, might be 7. This is why the covers, in particular, are now aimed at very young children, whereas when I was a child it wasn't unusual to still be reading Enid Blyton books aged 12 or 13 ( the age I momentarily stopped reading them).

Quite ironic, considering that many children these days (particularly boys!) would struggle to read a Famous Five book even at the age of 9 or 10! :roll:
'Oh voice of Spring of Youth
hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

(E. Blyton, Sunday Times, 1951)



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Re: What do you think about the fagging custom at St. Clare'

Post by MJE »

Rob Houghton wrote:My own personal theory about why certain 'violence' references have been removed from Enid's books is that they are now pretty much considered to be aimed at a younger audience - under 8, rather than slightly older, as when she wrote them. Most children would probably be considered 'too old' for Enid Blyton by the time they are 9 these days - and so the average age of reader of a Famous Five, for example, might be 7. This is why the covers, in particular, are now aimed at very young children, whereas when I was a child it wasn't unusual to still be reading Enid Blyton books aged 12 or 13 ( the age I momentarily stopped reading them).

Quite ironic, considering that many children these days (particularly boys!) would struggle to read a Famous Five book even at the age of 9 or 10! :roll:
     This is really quite weird - that makes 7-year-olds seem like brilliant intellectuals, almost. Why do you think the average readership age of the Famous Five (which I suppose translates also to many other children's books) has gone down so drastically? I am really curious about that.

Regards, Michael.
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Re: What do you think about the fagging custom at St. Clare'

Post by Rob Houghton »

I'm not sure whether it officially has...but the covers certainly seem to point to being aimed at younger children, with the characters looking less like real children and more cartoonish. I know children who have read them aged 7 or 8 - which seems about average...but many children, in my experience of hearing that age-group read (especially boys) would struggle to read a Famous Five book, in my opinion. Mind you, I did teach in schools that were in quite deprived areas.

Enid Blyton herself suggests a reading age of 7 - 11 and 'older' for The Famous Five. She also suggests ages 7 - 11 and older would be able to read the Adventure series - but I'm certain the 7 and 8 year old's I was teaching wouldn't have been able to read them - even the better readers would have struggled.
'Oh voice of Spring of Youth
hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

(E. Blyton, Sunday Times, 1951)



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Re: What do you think about the fagging custom at St. Clare'

Post by floragord »

MJE wrote:
     I occasionally wonder how I'd have fared if I'd been in a boarding school where things like fagging took place, and were generally accepted. Recalling how I was at the time, I think it's possible I might have gone along with it to some extent to keep out of trouble, but very unwillingly; but I also think it's very likely it would have later reached a point where I'd take no more, and very likely would refuse point-blank to comply, possibly with a lot of shouting and defiance, or throwing things around.
     I wonder what happened to kids who rebelled like that against the system. Crushed into oblivion, their spirit totally destroyed, I imagine - maybe damaged mentally for life.
Regards, Michael.
Funnily enough I have no recollection of anyone rebelling against the system at school - perhaps it would be more likely to happen in later days, when such customs were in abeyance?
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Re: What do you think about the fagging custom at St. Clare'

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floragord wrote:Funnily enough I have no recollection of anyone rebelling against the system at school - perhaps it would be more likely to happen in later days, when such customs were in abeyance?
     Well, I didn't rebel, either - but I wasn't subjected to some of these things anyway, and was also a day-boy, so had a nightly escape from things that got too upsetting.
     But my own emotional state at the time was quite unstable, and that is my reason for suspecting that, pushed hard enough, I might rebel more easily than many children might, especially in a boarding situation with no escape (except holidays), and especially if things like hazing, fagging, and so on were common and considered acceptable - and, knowing myself, I would have done it suddenly, completely, and very loudly, and there would be no turning back. In my darker moments, I just wonder what would be the ultimate fate of children who took it that way. I suspect it would be very, very bad and long-lasting.

Regards, Michael.
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Re: What do you think about the fagging custom at St. Clare'

Post by Anita Bensoussane »

MJE wrote:      The high levels of violence in modern novels may be committed by people such as criminals or others whom you would not expect to behave properly anyway - or, at the most, when done by supposedly more "proper" types of people like teachers or parents, those individual ones shown are clearly shown as abusive and not showing proper behaviour for those types of authority figures.
     But the beatings or slappings in Enid Blyton books are sometimes administered by authority figures who are *not* shown as abusive, but represented as proper examples of their type (e.g., Mr. Hilton and Mr. Lynton both supposedly caned their children at least once each, and seem to be presented in general as respectable, proper parents, even if rather cross and impatient).
     Is that possibly the reason for this apparent anomaly? In other words the acceptability of the violence is determined not only, or even mainly, by the level of violence, but by who administers it and their level of respectability in society generally.
     There may be flaws in my reasoning - it's just an idea that occurred to me on the spot, and doesn't account for why the beating in "The Mystery of the Secret Room" was changed, even though it came from men who were in no way respectable.
I agree that that might explain some of the changes, Michael, though it doesn't account for the toning down of Mr. Tupping's nastiness in Disappearing Cat either.
MJE wrote:
Anita Bensoussane wrote:The modern edition still has a waxwork of Winston Churchill at the fair but the part about Bets admiring him and having a photo of him on display in her bedroom has been removed. I suppose it's because Winston Churchill is now just a name from history, whereas he was a popular statesman and public figure when Missing Necklace was first published.
     So whose photo did Bets have instead, and whom did she admire? Margaret Thatcher, for instance?
That part has just been taken out altogether, without being replaced by anything.
MJE wrote:
Rob Houghton wrote:My own personal theory about why certain 'violence' references have been removed from Enid's books is that they are now pretty much considered to be aimed at a younger audience - under 8, rather than slightly older, as when she wrote them... This is why the covers, in particular, are now aimed at very young children, whereas when I was a child it wasn't unusual to still be reading Enid Blyton books aged 12 or 13.
Why do you think the average readership age of the Famous Five (which I suppose translates also to many other children's books) has gone down so drastically?
I suppose it's part of the general perception that children "grow up faster" these days and are seeking more sophisticated fare from an earlier age.

If I'd been to a boarding school and it had a fagging system I imagine I'd have complied, albeit reluctantly. I'd probably have viewed it as just one of those things you had to put up with at school - like exams, cross-country runs, itchy jumpers and cold tapioca.
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Re: What do you think about the fagging custom at St. Clare'

Post by MJE »

Anita Bensoussane wrote:I agree that that might explain some of the changes, Michael, though it doesn't account for the toning down of Mr. Tupping's nastiness in Disappearing Cat either.
     That is certainly true - and applies also to the incident I referred to before in the Secret Room. But, in relation to that comment, I was thinking about supposedly more respectable corporal punishment, such as by guardians or parents. I expect those have been ruthlessly pruned altogether - not merely toned down.
Anita Bensoussane wrote:That part has just been taken out altogether, without being replaced by anything.
     Well, it probably doesn't do any harm to the story - just harm, in principle, to the integrity of the text.
     But It does seem odd, anyway, for a young girl to admire a politician. Would that have been odd even at the time the book appeared?
Anita Bensoussane wrote:I suppose it's part of the general perception that children "grow up faster" these days and are seeking more sophisticated fare from an earlier age.
     Hearing about the behaviour of some young people on-line (Facebook, Twitter, and their ilk), I wonder.... Sometimes I think it's the very opposite, that real maturity is coming later, but accompanied by a veneer of fake-sophistication. (Someone ought to invent the ultimate trashy social-media site, and call it YouTwitFace!)

Regards, Michael.
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Re: What do you think about the fagging custom at St. Clare'

Post by Rob Houghton »

I'm making a sweeping generalisation, of course, but I think that is the main difference between children when we were at school, and children nowadays. Health and safety and political correctness have both changed children's perceptions of what is acceptable. You can see it in every day life, too, wihere people complain and protest about absolutely everything!

In 'our day' and in the decades before, also, children/people in general tended to 'put up' with things and when I was at school being told off, playing sports in the rain on a muddy field, taking punishments, eating badly prepared food in the school canteen, being kept in half an hour after school, and even, to a certain extent, being bullied, were just looked on as being a normal part of school life. 8)
'Oh voice of Spring of Youth
hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

(E. Blyton, Sunday Times, 1951)



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