Julian - What do you think of him?

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Re: Julian - What do you think of him?

Post by sixret »

If I were Julian or Dick or Anne for that matter, I would have made her sulk even more seeing that she likes to sulk! Sulkiness is one thing that I couldn't tolerate! I would have confronted George right then and there if she sulks just to make her sulk even more! :x :x :x :x
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Re: Julian - What do you think of him?

Post by db105 »

Well, they did. They begged her not to spoil the holidays with her attitude, and she promised she would try. George is not easy to befriend, but they made the effort and it was well worth it.
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Re: Julian - What do you think of him?

Post by sixret »

Which shows her "white" personality! :D
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The hypocrisy, double standard, prejudice and bigotry own by some people is so obvious.Shame on them!
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Re: Julian - What do you think of him?

Post by Moonraker »

Rob Houghton wrote:
Moonraker wrote:
A long post which I thoroughly enjoyed! :D
Thought you didn't like 'long posts'...? :mrgreen: :P
That's my point! :D
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Re: Julian - What do you think of him?

Post by Rob Houghton »

Lol - just playing you at your own game - a little gentle ribbing! ;-)
sixret wrote:Which shows her "white" personality! :D
I don't quite get the 'white' personality thing...if it was the other way round - 'a black personality' it would be considered racist, lol!! ;-)
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Re: Julian - What do you think of him?

Post by sixret »

You're right. Good personality is more like it. :D
I stand with justice and the truth. Palestine will be free from the river to the sea.

Learn the history. Do research.

The hypocrisy, double standard, prejudice and bigotry own by some people is so obvious.Shame on them!
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Re: Julian - What do you think of him?

Post by Rob Houghton »

The characters I tend to like best are the annoying ones - because they always seem better written, and more interesting - characters like George, and Lotta, who is a lot like George in temperament, or Susie in The Secret Seven, or Curious Connie in The Folk of the Faraway Tree. Even Amelia Jane is a great character because of these traits. Enid was so good at creating characters like this - and so this is why I guess I find Julian a bit bland by the side of them. 8)
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Re: Julian - What do you think of him?

Post by Machupicchu14 »

sixret wrote:If I were Julian or Dick or Anne for that matter, I would have made her sulk even more seeing that she likes to sulk! Sulkiness is one thing that I couldn't tolerate! I would have confronted George right then and there if she sulks just to make her sulk even more! :x :x :x :x
I have always liked the Famous Five, especially George, who was my role model when I was smaller. I felt we were similar in many aspects. She liked animals, I do too. We are both hot tempered and sulk easily. (I try not to get in such bad moods but it's sometimes difficult for me!). She was always ready to help other people and she was kind. I see her as a twin sister, whereas for me Julian was the old, and mature brother I would look up to.
I think it's good that they put George in her place because sometimes she does get a bit too annoying, due to her immature character.
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Re: Julian - What do you think of him?

Post by Machupicchu14 »

Rob Houghton wrote:The characters I tend to like best are the annoying ones - because they always seem better written, and more interesting - characters like George, and Lotta, who is a lot like George in temperament, or Susie in The Secret Seven, or Curious Connie in The Folk of the Faraway Tree. Even Amelia Jane is a great character because of these traits. Enid was so good at creating characters like this - and so this is why I guess I find Julian a bit bland by the side of them. 8)
I think the same. They are probably the strongest characters as well, and full of personality. Also, that makes them stand out from the rest.
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Re: Julian - What do you think of him?

Post by sixret »

I love Lotta and Susie very much. I beg to differ but George is different. The only similarity between them is that they are annoying. But Lotta and Susie and evn Snubby are likeable because of their mischievousness which George is not. :D

For some reasons, I could not relate to George even though I myself is strong willed and stuborn, Maria Esther. :D
I stand with justice and the truth. Palestine will be free from the river to the sea.

Learn the history. Do research.

The hypocrisy, double standard, prejudice and bigotry own by some people is so obvious.Shame on them!
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Re: Julian - What do you think of him?

Post by Anita Bensoussane »

Although they're interesting and unpredictable I must admit I find George, Susie and Amelia Jane tiresome at times. But that might be partly down to the fact that they're in so many books/stories!

I never tire of Lotta as she's a whirl of energy and impishness. George sulks more (not always without reason) and Susie and Amelia Jane can be spiteful, but Lotta sounds like a lot of fun.

Elizabeth Allen (Naughtiest Girl) is another character who goes out of her way to be moody and uncooperative at first, believing it will get her what she wants, but her vivaciousness shines through nevertheless and I've always liked her.

As others have said, these conflicted/impulsive/daring/rebellious characters add a lot to the stories.


**SPOILER WARNING FOR 'FIVE RUN AWAY TOGETHER'.**


Although Julian is often regarded as rather a serious young chap, in Five Run Away Together he lightens the mood wonderfully during the oppressive reign of the Sticks and buoys George up when she's going through a tough time and is feeling worried and miserable. Some of my favourite "Julian moments" are in that book, despite my reservations about the way Tinker is treated by the children.
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Re: Julian - What do you think of him?

Post by pete9012S »

db105 wrote: 14 Jan 2017, 20:25 I hope you'll excuse me for rescuing an old topic with my first post, but reading it I felt moved to speak on Julian's defence.

I rather like all the famous five, including Julian. When I read the books as a boy, he seemed to me the big brother I would have liked to have: strong, brave and confident, but at the same time kind, protective and willing to play with me and include me in every activity. This is a good trait of Julian's that he is not given enough credit for: kids often like to play with friends their own age, and don't like having younger relatives hanging around. It's true that the age difference here is not that big, but the level of maturity Julian displays is different than Anne's, or even Dick's and George's. However, he likes spending his time with them and being part of the group, and is never tempted to ditch them for friends his own age.

I understand the critics' point of view: it's true he sometimes comes across as bossy. However, let's consider the situation. We have a group of high-spirited children who regularly spend their holidays traveling on their own on isolated locations for weeks at a time, without adult supervision, and often find themselves in adventures involving criminals and danger. They are allowed to go on their own because the older kid is quite mature and responsible and their parents trust him to be in charge and keep the others out of trouble and safe. Even though he is not much older, his siblings and cousins look up to him. Now, such a setup can only work if all the kids are ready to behave like little adults or if this eldest boy is willing to step up and take a leading role, and the others are willing to follow his lead.

All the children have a good relationship and it's not necessary for Julian to act like the boss regularly, but in a crisis he needs to take charge. Why? Because like it or not in a way he is responsible for the group. If something bad happens to Anne, fairly or not, the adults are going to be asking "how did you let your sister get in this situation?" If George or Dick do something dangerous and are seriously hurt, Julian will also be blamed, and he will blame himself. Bearing this responsibility becomes impossible if the others are not willing to follow his lead when they are on their own and there are no adults in charge of them.

Looking at it from a modern point of view, Julian seems too bossy, because elder siblings nowadays are not expected to look after and be responsible for their younger brothers and sisters. But if we look at it in context, his behavior seems right to me. Children nowadays would never be allowed to go away on their own for their holidays without adult supervision. That's the thing that fascinated me most as a child: how these kids were allowed to go on their own and have these wonderful adventures without adults in charge of them. The Famous Five were able to do that because it was a different time, because Tim was there to defend them and because Julian was trusted to be responsible.

From my point of view, the only times when I did not like how he behaved were a couple of isolated incidents when he was too bossy and protective with George, treating her differently than Dick. No one is bothered that he was so protective of Anne, because Anne clearly needed it and wanted it that way. Also, I don't think there's anything to criticize in the way he treats Dick. However, with George he shouldn't be so protective. He should treat her exactly the way he treats Dick. The few times he doesn't do so are his most unsympathetic moments. George certainly is as strong and brave as any boy her age, so why should he treat her as a damsel in distress in need of special protection, particularly knowing that she hates not being treated as a boy? What a jerk, right?

Of course, I think it's unfair to judge Julian for that without once more taking the social context into account. George, even if she liked being treated like a boy, was still a girl. Julian was expected to protect her more than he was expected to protect Dick. Every social experience had conditioned him to believe that girls needed more protection. Can we really condemn him for acting like an elder boy from the 40s or 50s was expected to act? Particularly when we know from the rest of his behavior that he is a kind boy, who doesn't get a kick out of bossing the others around just to show he can? He is just doing the best he knows, and doing quite well by that standard.

George herself clearly likes him and looks up to him, even if she sometimes disagrees with him, and we all know she is not one to shut up and lower her chin if she is not treated fairly. That fact also indicates that Julian is not an overly bossy bully.

Nowadays, of course, this wouldn't be a problem. A strong-willed girl like George would be treated exactly the same as a strong-willed boy. But the Famous Five is not set in the present. The series could not work in the present. George would not be so set on being treated like a boy, since as a girl she would be treated the same as a boy without needing to rebel against social conventions. And, of course, no child would be expected to be responsible for younger relatives. The Famous Five would never be allowed to go on holidays without adult supervision.

So Julian, even if you are sometimes bossy, I still appreciate your good qualities and I like you a lot. I'm proud to have you as a big brother in my imagination and have adventures with you and the others. And when we are in danger, I feel safer having you with us. ;)

A great defence of Julian db105 - I must search back through the years in this thread and see what I posted about Julian.
I know these days, he doesn't get my gander up as much as he may have done back in the mists of time.
Maybe like Nigel I am becoming more tolerant!
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Re: Julian - What do you think of him?

Post by Debbie »

I agree with most of what db05 wrote.

But I think I'd add that sometimes he is extra bossy with George because he is meant to be responsible for them, and he knows that if he isn't firm she will go off and do her own thing.
In the same way that if I'm in a situation where I'm not sure the people will do as I say and I need them to then I will be much more firm and sound very confident-I'm not inside though. The less confident I am that they'll do as I say, the more firm I tend to sound.
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Re: Julian - What do you think of him?

Post by db105 »

pete9012S wrote: 24 Jan 2022, 20:52 A great defence of Julian db105 - I must search back through the years in this thread and see what I posted about Julian.
It's not that I don't understand the "too bossy" criticism, but everybody in the thread seemed to be against him, and I thought he did not deserve so much censure. Yes, he's bossy and takes charge, but then he is older and is put in charge by the adults, who otherwise wouldn't let the children go on holidays on their own. He doesn't really use that authority to beat down on the others or for any power trip.

Debbie wrote: 24 Jan 2022, 21:28 But I think I'd add that sometimes he is extra bossy with George because he is meant to be responsible for them, and he knows that if he isn't firm she will go off and do her own thing.
In the same way that if I'm in a situation where I'm not sure the people will do as I say and I need them to then I will be much more firm and sound very confident-I'm not inside though. The less confident I am that they'll do as I say, the more firm I tend to sound.
That sounds reasonable, Debbie. Enid Blyton's stories are more about action than about introspection, so we have no way of knowing, but it's certainly a possible interpretation of the character.


When I learned about British boarding schools like the ones the Famous Five went to, I wondered if Julian was a prefect there and thus was used to having authority. But I guess he would be too young for that?
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Re: Julian - What do you think of him?

Post by Boatbuilder »

db105 wrote: 24 Jan 2022, 23:36
It's not that I don't understand the "too bossy" criticism, but everybody in the thread seemed to be against him, and I thought he did not deserve so much censure. Yes, he's bossy and takes charge, but then he is older and is put in charge by the adults, who otherwise wouldn't let the children go on holidays on their own. He doesn't really use that authority to beat down on the others or for any power trip.
Debbie wrote: 24 Jan 2022, 21:28 But I think I'd add that sometimes he is extra bossy with George because he is meant to be responsible for them, and he knows that if he isn't firm she will go off and do her own thing.
That sounds reasonable, Debbie. Enid Blyton's stories are more about action than about introspection, so we have no way of knowing, but it's certainly a possible interpretation of the character.


When I learned about British boarding schools like the ones the Famous Five went to, I wondered if Julian was a prefect there and thus was used to having authority. But I guess he would be too young for that?
Your thoughts on Julian's school status could well be right, db105. You have to remember that the books commenced in 1942, at which time the school leaving age in the UK was still 14 and that wasn't changed until the Education Act of 1944 which raised it to 15. So, although Julian was 12 in the first book, he wasn't that far off the most senior school years of the day, so one could reasonably assume he may have had some responsibilties at school which he would possibly want to 'put to the test' in his out-of-school life.
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