Julian - What do you think of him?

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Re: Julian - What do you think of him?

Post by Rob Houghton »

Daisy wrote:What struck me when I read the Fives books as a child was the way some grown-ups, like the policemen at times, called him 'Sir'.
I noticed that, in Five Fall Into Adventure, the local constable calls him Sir...that class thing again. The policeman is a 'public servant' so he tugs his forelock with Julian! ;-)
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Re: Julian - What do you think of him?

Post by georgemillman »

I think it would be interesting to note that Peter in The Secret Seven shares some of Julian's mannerisms, such as snobbishness and talking down to the other members, who he considers himself vastly superior to. However, I think with Peter it's meant to come across as annoying and pretentious, whereas Julian I think Blyton intended to be more endearing, despite how it may come across to older readers.

Given that it has been mentioned several times throughout the Secret Seven series that in their world the Famous Five books exist and they all read them, I think it's entirely possible that in-universe, Peter is modelling himself on Julian on purpose. However, being a bit younger, Peter hasn't quite worked out how to do it, and therefore doesn't pick his battles very well, and is obsessively anal about people wearing badges and remembering the password. As a result, some of the more vocal group members challenge him, and there have been times that he has to back down. Julian doesn't really have that, because Dick and Anne are mostly on his side, and George is the only rebel.

Has anyone else thought of this?
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Re: Julian - What do you think of him?

Post by Moonraker »

I can imagine Peter growing into a kind of Captain Mainwaring type.
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Re: Julian - What do you think of him?

Post by Jack400 »

Yes I agree- You stupid boy (as Mainwaring would say). Frequently wrong, but somehow always right.
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Re: Julian - What do you think of him?

Post by Rob Houghton »

Reading The Fives in order, it's interesting to watch Julian develop. He's sort of an equal in the very first few books, then slowly becomes more of a dictator and a tyrant (!!) especially from Caravan through to Trouble, but then he gradually softens again. During Hike and Wonderful Time I've hardly noticed anything that annoys me about him, except that he does feel the need to shout superiorly at the fair folk when they tell him to clear off!

One thing made me smile in Wonderful Time - it's mentioned a few times how much The Five like to chat with fair folk and circus folk, and how these people have always been very friendly in the past! I don't recall this, having read all the books in order so far. Nobby was friendly, and a few others in Caravan, but there were also very many fair-folk characters who were nasty. Quite why Julian and Dick seem to think they usually get on okay with fair-folk is beyond me! :shock: :lol:
Last edited by Rob Houghton on 01 May 2015, 13:32, edited 1 time in total.
'Oh voice of Spring of Youth
hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

(E. Blyton, Sunday Times, 1951)



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Re: Julian - What do you think of him?

Post by pete9012S »

Yes,I agree.
I'm currently re-reading Go Off In A Caravan and it was interesting to read:
'You will be in complete charge, you understand, Julian,' said the boy's father. 'You are old enough now to be really responsible. The others must realise that you are in charge and they must do as you say.'
'Yes, sir,' said Julian, feeling proud. 'I'll see to things all right.'
'And Timmy will be in charge, too,' said George. 'He's just as responsible as Julian.'
'Woof,' said Timmy, hearing his name, and thumping the floor with his tail.
'You're a darling, Timmy,' said Anne. 'I'll always do what you say, as well as what Julian says!'
'Idiot!' said Dick. He patted Timmy's head. 'I bet we wouldn't be allowed to go without you, Timothy. You are a jolly good guard for anyone.'
'You certainly wouldn't be allowed to go without Timmy,' said his mother. 'We know you'll be safe with him.'
Is this the earliest mention of Julian being in charge? Perhaps that's why he comes across so bombastic,regal and authoritative??

I'm in the camp that is extremely fond of Julian and forgiving and tolerant of his ways,but even I was taken aback when I recently read Mystery Moor after a gap of many years.

To set the scene,Julian has only been at the riding stables for five minutes as an add hock extra guest without an official residency and yet we find him taking charge of the situation involving Sniffer,his horse and Sniffer's father:
‘Let me have my horse. I tell you, I’ll be half killed if I go back without him.’ He began to cry again.
The children felt sorry for him. He was such a thin, skinny misery of a boy, and goodness, how he sniffled all the time!
‘What’s your name?’ asked Anne.

‘Sniffer,’ said the boy. ‘That’s what my father calls me.’
It was certainly a good name for him; but what a horrid father he must have!
Haven’t you got a proper name?’ asked Anne.
‘Yes. But I’ve forgotten it,’ said Sniffer. ‘Let me have my horse. I tell you, my father’s waiting.’
Julian got up. ‘I’ll come and see your father and put some sense into him. Where is he?’
‘Over yonder,’ said Sniffer with a big sniff, and he pointed over the hedge. ‘I’ll come too,’ said Dick. In the end everyone got up and went with Sniffer. They walked through the gate and saw a dark-faced, surly-looking man standing motionless not far off. His thick, oily hair was curly, and he wore enormous gold rings hanging from his ears. He looked up as the little company came near.
‘Your horse isn’t fit to walk yet,’ said Julian. ‘You can have it tomorrow or the next day, the Captain says.’
‘I’ll have it now,’ said the man, in a surly tone. ‘We’re starting off tonight or tomorrow over the moor. I can’t wait.’
‘But what’s the hurry?’ said Julian. ‘The moor will wait for you!’
The man scowled and shifted from one foot to another. ‘Can’t you stay for another night or two and then go after the others?’ said Dick.
Can you imagine the tone of voice Julian would have no doubt used in this situation.
But,aha,I've just had a thought.Can Julian be excused because he was showing a love for animals?
We know how much emotion the mistreatment of Stinker caused a few adventures back.Could Julian be now trying to make amends with the animal world for his cruel treatment of Stinker when he soaked him with freezing water and threw sods and clods at the poor little doggie?
" A kind heart always brings its own reward," said Mrs. Lee.
- The Christmas Tree Aeroplane -

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Re: Julian - What do you think of him?

Post by db105 »

I hope you'll excuse me for rescuing an old topic with my first post, but reading it I felt moved to speak on Julian's defence.

I rather like all the famous five, including Julian. When I read the books as a boy, he seemed to me the big brother I would have liked to have: strong, brave and confident, but at the same time kind, protective and willing to play with me and include me in every activity. This is a good trait of Julian's that he is not given enough credit for: kids often like to play with friends their own age, and don't like having younger relatives hanging around. It's true that the age difference here is not that big, but the level of maturity Julian displays is different than Anne's, or even Dick's and George's. However, he likes spending his time with them and being part of the group, and is never tempted to ditch them for friends his own age.

I understand the critics' point of view: it's true he sometimes comes across as bossy. However, let's consider the situation. We have a group of high-spirited children who regularly spend their holidays traveling on their own on isolated locations for weeks at a time, without adult supervision, and often find themselves in adventures involving criminals and danger. They are allowed to go on their own because the older kid is quite mature and responsible and their parents trust him to be in charge and keep the others out of trouble and safe. Even though he is not much older, his siblings and cousins look up to him. Now, such a setup can only work if all the kids are ready to behave like little adults or if this eldest boy is willing to step up and take a leading role, and the others are willing to follow his lead.

All the children have a good relationship and it's not necessary for Julian to act like the boss regularly, but in a crisis he needs to take charge. Why? Because like it or not in a way he is responsible for the group. If something bad happens to Anne, fairly or not, the adults are going to be asking "how did you let your sister get in this situation?" If George or Dick do something dangerous and are seriously hurt, Julian will also be blamed, and he will blame himself. Bearing this responsibility becomes impossible if the others are not willing to follow his lead when they are on their own and there are no adults in charge of them.

Looking at it from a modern point of view, Julian seems too bossy, because elder siblings nowadays are not expected to look after and be responsible for their younger brothers and sisters. But if we look at it in context, his behavior seems right to me. Children nowadays would never be allowed to go away on their own for their holidays without adult supervision. That's the thing that fascinated me most as a child: how these kids were allowed to go on their own and have these wonderful adventures without adults in charge of them. The Famous Five were able to do that because it was a different time, because Tim was there to defend them and because Julian was trusted to be responsible.

From my point of view, the only times when I did not like how he behaved were a couple of isolated incidents when he was too bossy and protective with George, treating her differently than Dick. No one is bothered that he was so protective of Anne, because Anne clearly needed it and wanted it that way. Also, I don't think there's anything to criticize in the way he treats Dick. However, with George he shouldn't be so protective. He should treat her exactly the way he treats Dick. The few times he doesn't do so are his most unsympathetic moments. George certainly is as strong and brave as any boy her age, so why should he treat her as a damsel in distress in need of special protection, particularly knowing that she hates not being treated as a boy? What a jerk, right?

Of course, I think it's unfair to judge Julian for that without once more taking the social context into account. George, even if she liked being treated like a boy, was still a girl. Julian was expected to protect her more than he was expected to protect Dick. Every social experience had conditioned him to believe that girls needed more protection. Can we really condemn him for acting like an elder boy from the 40s or 50s was expected to act? Particularly when we know from the rest of his behavior that he is a kind boy, who doesn't get a kick out of bossing the others around just to show he can? He is just doing the best he knows, and doing quite well by that standard.

George herself clearly likes him and looks up to him, even if she sometimes disagrees with him, and we all know she is not one to shut up and lower her chin if she is not treated fairly. That fact also indicates that Julian is not an overly bossy bully.

Nowadays, of course, this wouldn't be a problem. A strong-willed girl like George would be treated exactly the same as a strong-willed boy. But the Famous Five is not set in the present. The series could not work in the present. George would not be so set on being treated like a boy, since as a girl she would be treated the same as a boy without needing to rebel against social conventions. And, of course, no child would be expected to be responsible for younger relatives. The Famous Five would never be allowed to go on holidays without adult supervision.

So Julian, even if you are sometimes bossy, I still appreciate your good qualities and I like you a lot. I'm proud to have you as a big brother in my imagination and have adventures with you and the others. And when we are in danger, I feel safer having you with us. ;)
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Re: Julian - What do you think of him?

Post by Anita Bensoussane »

A fair and considered assessment of Julian, which I thoroughly enjoyed reading. As you say, it's important to take the social context into account.

What a great first post! Welcome to the forums. :D
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Re: Julian - What do you think of him?

Post by Lucky Star »

Excellent post db105. I think it is in book 5 Five go off in a Caravan that Uncle Quentin says something like "Julian must be a pretty poor specimen if he cannot take charge". It illustrates your point that as the eldest Julian was expected to be in charge and furthermore would be the one to be blamed if anything bad happened to the others. While he can be a little overbearing at times I think that's really justa sign of him taking his responsibilities seriously. Enid obviously believed in the idea that the eldest sibling is the one in charge.

Welcome to the forums. They are a great place for any Blyton fan to while away the time. :D
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Re: Julian - What do you think of him?

Post by Rob Houghton »

Great first post! :-D

Although I've been critical of Julian in the past, it's more with affection than anything, apart from the very few occasions he really does seem bossy - mainly with George, as has been said.

One thing that did strike me though, and makes me a bit puzzled, is how Julian starts off being more-or-less subservient to George in the first book - no one can swim better than George, or row a boat better, or do a dozen and more things better than George, and Julian is pretty much in awe of her - so I wonder why his outlook towards her changes so much as the books continue? Instead of looking up to her and admiring her, sometimes he seems to find her a nuisance and a rebel and too head-strong. I suppose it was because in the first book he was a guest and therefore didn't throw his opinions about quite so freely! :lol:
'Oh voice of Spring of Youth
hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

(E. Blyton, Sunday Times, 1951)



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Re: Julian - What do you think of him?

Post by Daisy »

I think you answered your question in the last sentence Rob. As the cousins get to know each other better and shake down into a foursome existence, Julian's leadership qualities emerge more strongly. As has been said, he was a guest in a virtually stranger's home in the first book. He would expect that George, as the hostess (!) should be deferred to, but she was very much an unknown quantity and a rather unexpected character too.
Great first post db105. Welcome.
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Re: Julian - What do you think of him?

Post by Rob Houghton »

I think this is partly why I believe, when writing about George, Enid was writing about herself - its so well observed. I guess men and boys (and all grown-ups really) would find it slightly amusing at first that Enid/George was so head-strong, determined, independent, etc - but then eventually there would have come a time when adults began thinking 'oh - for Heaven's sake - just grow up and conform and stop being a tom boy!' - that's what George faces when Julian attempts to squash her and treat her more 'like a girl' I think. Convention starting to take over. :D I'm sure Enid faced the same thing - but the difference is that Enid conformed slightly more than George did!
'Oh voice of Spring of Youth
hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

(E. Blyton, Sunday Times, 1951)



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Re: Julian - What do you think of him?

Post by Deej92 »

Excellent first post, db105. A very fair assessment of Julian.

You're right of course that Julian does sometimes come across as bossy and overprotective at times, but as the oldest and the leader of the group, he had a responsibility to look after everyone.

Like you say, Julian was only behaving in the way any other boy of his age would have been expected to act during the time period - and he was fair and kind with it and I think the others could see that and respected him.

His kindness showed in the very first book (Treasure Island) when George was down on the beach with the other children and she was being quite difficult and stubborn and obstinate towards her cousins. Then Julian offered to get her an ice cream but she wouldn't take it at first because she'd never shared anything before and couldn't offer anything back in return to the children.

However, when Julian mentions about George sharing Kirrin Island with the others, it is then that she accepts the offer of an ice cream, partly also out of admiration for Julian. One small passage in the chapter after that offer reads: "George looked at the brown eyes that gazed steadily into hers. She couldn't help liking Julian. It wasn't in her nature to share anything. She had always been an only child, a lonely, rather misunderstood little girl, fierce and hot tempered. She had never had any friends of her own. Timothy looked up at Julian and saw that he was offering something nice and chocolatey to George. He jumped up and licked the boy with his friendly tongue." I think this demonstrates the respect George had for Julian's patience and fairness in the face of her stubbornness and obstinacy.

In my opinion, the same qualities can't be attributed towards Peter in the Secret Seven, who used his position as leader to just be plain rude and bossy. I've always found him to be a bit of a bully, especially towards Pam and Barbara.
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Re: Julian - What do you think of him?

Post by db105 »

Thank you very much to all of you for the welcome! And also for the interesting reflections.

Regarding why Julian seems "pretty much in awe" of George in the first book and in later books tries to get her to conform more, I can think of two possible reasons.

The first is the one you guys have pointed out:
Rob Houghton wrote:I think this is partly why I believe, when writing about George, Enid was writing about herself - its so well observed. I guess men and boys (and all grown-ups really) would find it slightly amusing at first that Enid/George was so head-strong, determined, independent, etc - but then eventually there would have come a time when adults began thinking 'oh - for Heaven's sake - just grow up and conform and stop being a tom boy!' - that's what George faces when Julian attempts to squash her and treat her more 'like a girl' I think. Convention starting to take over. :D I'm sure Enid faced the same thing - but the difference is that Enid conformed slightly more than George did!
No doubt there's some of that. I'm not sure I'd say Julian was "in awe" of George in the first book, and I wouldn't say he was "subservient", but he certainly was very patient and kind in figuring her out and helping her get out of her shell and befriend her cousins. He clearly, like Dick and Anne, likes her, no matter how wild and unconventional she may be. Maybe they all are a bit fascinated by her. Also, in that book George is not just as good as any boy at "boyish" activities, but clearly better in some of them (swimming and rowing). When they are swimming and George helps Anne with her style, Anne thanks her and mentions that she will never be as good as her (George), but maybe she will be as good as Julian and Dick. My interpretation is that it's because she is much more used to those activities than her cousins, rather than because she is actually stronger than Julian in general.

Then later, once their friendship is firmly established, they perhaps feel more confident in trying to get her to change some of what they may perceive as excessive wildness.

I, like probably most readers, have a very soft spot for George. I know I want her not lo lose her fierceness and defiance. I want her to always be "as good as any boy". Not that boys are better than girls, but you know what I mean. Also, modern readers probably find it much easier to accept her eccentricities, because not conforming to the social norm is better accepted now than in the 40s and 50s when the books were written. So my sympathies, like those of most readers, are with George here. However, I think that it would be unfair to think that George is completely in the right here while the others, particularly Julian, are completely in the wrong. George's character is far from perfect. Before meeting her cousins, she was lonely and very rebellious, always sinking into bad moods, and that loneliness was not making her happy, even if she did not realize it. The ability to if not conform at least to be able to function within the rules of society when if suits her was an ability that she needed.

It's been a long time since I read the books, so the details are not fresh in my mind. However, I have started a reread of the series, and I'm in the middle of the second book (Five Go Adventuring Again). In this book she doesn't get along at all with their tutor, Mr. Roland, because he doesn't like dogs and he refuses to call her George. But even if she doesn't like him (and who can blame her?), she really makes things unnecessarily difficult for herself by expressing her hostility so openly. Sometimes, particularly when we are different, we need to be able to conform a bit in order to function in society. That does not mean we need to change who we are, but we need to be able to see that we can make allowances without sacrificing our integrity.

Probably at some points later in the series Julian goes too far in trying to get her to conform, and my sympathy is with George there, but I believe they are isolated incidents, and that in general they are all tolerant of her peculiarity.

A second possible reason, this one external to the books, is that they were written along the course of 20 years. Enid Blyton was 45 when the first was published and 66 when the last one was published. For the last books her health was declining. It's possible that as she got older her ability to think outside social conventions declined a bit, and she was less sympathetic to George's rebelliousness.

During this reread, I'll be watchful to see how Julian's attitude towards George changes and also how George herself changes. Reading these as a boy, I did not pay much attention to the internal order of the books. For me it wasn't a continuous story, but independent stories whose order was more or less interchangeable, except of course for the first one where they meet. Because of that I don't have a clear perception of the evolution of the characters. If George really becomes meeker and less fierce it may be because of the influence of her cousins or because Enid Blyton herself was changing.

I know I don't want her to be tamed, but I want her to change for the better in some things, while maintaining her spirit. Let's see what I find when reading them (or listening to them, actually) :)
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Re: Julian - What do you think of him?

Post by db105 »

Deej92 wrote:His kindness showed in the very first book (Treasure Island) when George was down on the beach with the other children and she was being quite difficult and stubborn and obstinate towards her cousins. Then Julian offered to get her an ice cream but she wouldn't take it at first because she'd never shared anything before and couldn't offer anything back in return to the children.
Yes, that was a very nice Julian moment!
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