Astrid Lindgren on Enid Blyton

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Astrid Lindgren on Enid Blyton

Post by Chrissie777 »

I've read several times in the past about Astrid Lindgren's quote on Enid Blyton, but forgot the exact wording. All I remember is that it was diplomatic at the very least (if not even kind/nice).

Now I've received three more Lindgren biographies from amazon.de after the large picture biography by Jacob Forsell which arrived last week.
One was written by Swedish author Margareta Stroemstedt and published in 1999 (and is regarded by many Lindgren fans as the best biography on Astrid Lindgren, because she was a close friend of Lindgren for more than 30 years).
It has EB listed in the index on page 291:
Quote: What is it that Astrid Lindgren possesses/has that other children book authors don't have?
Popularity in itself of course is no guarantee for quality.
The books of British author Enid Blyton are filled with prejudices, but published in many countries in high quantities (hohen Auflagen). My online translator had no decent translation for Auflage, but it basically means that a book is published in high quantity.

The next book on Lindgren was written by Danish author Jens Andersen and published in 2014, but in it's index EB is not listed.
The 3rd book is by German author Birgit Dankert, was published in 2013, but also has no mention of EB.

So now I'm curious what other forumites think about Stroemstedt's claim that EB books were filled with prejudices? I've read many other children's books written by other authors about circus folks and gypsies who had the exact same prejudices. I guess it was typical way back in the 40's and 50's.
What's your opinion?
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Re: Astrid Lindgren on Enid Blyton

Post by timv »

When I was reading the books by Enid that featured 'circus folk' and 'gypsies' (late 1960s), it never occurred to me that her views were prejudiced - that seems to have come in mostly as a result of earnestly 'liberal' commentators in the 1970s and after.
One writer I came across at university c. 1979,(a sociologist I think) called Rob? Dixon, wrote a book titled 'Catching Them Young' which featured lots of alleged examples of Enid's 'prejudice' about circus and 'minority ethnic' people, especially in the Famous Five books with Jo in 'Five Fall Into Adventure' - who has to have a bath and borrow good clothes before she is 'acceptable' - and her villanous father as prime examples of Enid 'looking down on' non-suburban ways of life. I rather laughed at this 'shock horror' attitude to Enid as seeming to deliberately look for something to condemn, buit it seems to have multiplied . There was a small degree of truth in some of it - but (a) Enid was really just using slightly cliched 'types' of people, as she did in various stories, without any intent to be 'superior' (b) the wandering life of a 'traveller' outside mainstream society was seen as exotic, especially in suburban SE London where Enid grew up, and Enid showed its romance as well as its 'underside' sporadic connection with crime.
Enid is usually 'positive' about the 'traveller' experience - eg the thrills that Jimmy has in heading away from a dull ordinary existence to a 'travelling' circus life and the mostly honest and hard-working circus folk in the 'Galliano's Circus' series and the similar experiences that Fenny has in 'Come To The Circus'. Similarly Carlotta's circus life in the St Clare's books is seen as romantic and her ex-circus mother was not treated well by her father's snobbish family; Enid favours Carlotta not her snooty critic Prudence.
The Famous Five's encounters are more mixed - eg Dan and Lou the crooks in Five Go Off In A Caravan and Mr Gringo the crime boss in Five Have Plenty Of Fun. The fair folk are also a bit lawless in Five Have A Wonderful Time, threatening to dump the Five's caravans out on the road ilegally. But the 'pluses and minuses' of these types reflect those of any real community. The only real 'prejudice against gypsies' I can think of is in Six Cousins Again, where they are semi-caricatures, selling clothes-pegs and telling fortunes and then stealing silver spoons at Holly Farm; when David Longfield throws them out they then steal his hens and poison his cows. This did seem a bit unpleasant to me.
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Re: Astrid Lindgren on Enid Blyton

Post by Chrissie777 »

timv wrote: The Famous Five's encounters are more mixed - eg Dan and Lou the crooks in Five Go Off In A Caravan and Mr Gringo the crime boss in Five Have Plenty Of Fun. The fair folk are also a bit lawless in Five Have A Wonderful Time, threatening to dump the Five's caravans out on the road ilegally. But the 'pluses and minuses' of these types reflect those of any real community. The only real 'prejudice against gypsies' I can think of is in Six Cousins Again, where they are semi-caricatures, selling clothes-pegs and telling fortunes and then stealing silver spoons at Holly Farm; when David Longfield throws them out they then steal his hens and poison his cows. This did seem a bit unpleasant to me.
Hi Tim, good point :).
I'm not familiar with any of the "Galliano" or "Six Cousins" books, only the suspenseful series and stand alone books.
Well, I do remember that even in the 1960's German mothers still worried that the gypsies might steel the laundry hanging in the garden to dry.

On my way to school in Friedrichshafen at Lake Constance, we walked by a gypsies camp (little houses called Schweizer Haeuschen aka Swiss Houses that the city of Friedrichshafen gave them to live there) six days a week and they were very friendly, especially the kids.
Last year my husband, one of my former classmates and I stopped the car next to that former gypsy camp and as it turned out, there were still daughters and sons of those gypsies living whose fathers were my age when I went to school. They were nice people, we chatted quite a bit. They got the conversation going by asking us why we stopped the car and looked at their little houses. So we explained that I wanted to relive my long walk to school (no school busses in Germany).
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Re: Astrid Lindgren on Enid Blyton

Post by pete9012S »

Image

One of the most unsavoury characters she created for me was Sniffer's Father.No love for his son in evidence and certainly none for his sick horse at Captain Johnson's riding school.

Image

Although to be fair,Enid manages to make Sniffer's Father come across as extremely unsavoury at the very same time as she depicts Julian at his most superior,pompous and condescending!
They walked through the gate and saw a dark-faced, surly-looking man standing motionless not far off. His thick, oily hair was curly, and he wore enormous gold rings hanging from his ears. He looked up as the little company came near.
‘Your horse isn’t fit to walk yet,’ said Julian. ‘You can have it tomorrow or the next day, the Captain says.’
‘I’ll have it now,’ said the man, in a surly tone. ‘We’re starting off tonight or tomorrow over the moor. I can’t wait.’
Just a short time after this authoritative interchange with the masterful Ju,we read:

‘Where’s the torch? Hello, look, the stable door is open! Quick, Dick, where on earth is the torch?’
They found it at last and Julian clicked it on. At first he saw nothing, for the gypsy was in Clip’s stall, lying down behind the horse. Then the torch picked him out.
‘Hallo! Look there - it’s that gypsy, Sniffer’s father!’ said Julian. ‘Get up, you! What on earth are you doing here, in the middle of the night?’

The man got up sullenly. His ear-rings shone in the light of the torch. ‘I came to get Clip,’ he said. ‘He’s my horse, isn’t he?’
‘You were told he wasn’t fit to walk yet,’ said Julian. ‘Do you want him to go lame for life? You ought to know enough about horses to know when one can be worked or not!’
‘I’ve got my orders,’ said the man. ‘I’ve got to take my caravan with the others.’
‘Who said so?’ said Dick, scornfully.
‘Barney Boswell,’ said the man. ‘He’s boss of our lot here. We’ve got to start off together tomorrow.’
‘But why?’ said Julian, puzzled. ‘What’s so urgent about all this? What’s the mystery?’
‘There ain’t no mystery,’ said the man, still sullen. ‘We’re just going to the moor.’
‘What are you going to do there?’ asked Dick, curiously. ‘It doesn’t seem to me to be the place to take a lot of caravans to. There’s nothing there at all, is there? Or so I’ve heard.’

The man shrugged his shoulders and said nothing. He turned to Clip as if to get him up. But Julian rapped out at him at once,
‘Oh no, you don’t! If you don’t care about injuring a horse, I do! You’ve only got to be patient for a day or two more, and he’ll be quite all right. You’re not to take him tonight. Dick, go and wake Captain Johnson. He’ll know what to do.’
‘No,’ said the man, scowling. ‘Don’t go waking anybody. I’ll go. But just you see that Clip is given to Sniffer as soon as it’s possible, or I’ll know the reason why! See?’
He looked at Julian in a threatening way.
‘Take that scowl off your face,’ said Julian. ‘I’m glad you’ve seen sense. Clear out now. Go off with the others tomorrow and I’ll see that Sniffer has the horse in a short time.’

The man moved to the door and slid out like a shadow. Julian went to watch him across the yard, wondering whether, out of spite, the man might try to steal a hen, or one of the ducks sleeping beside the pond.
But there was no sudden clucking, no loud quack. The man had gone as silently as he had come.
‘Most peculiar, all this!’ said Julian, latching the door again. He tied a piece of thick string over it his side, so that it could not be lifted from outside. ‘There! Now if the gypsy comes again, he’ll find he can’t get in. What a nerve, coming here in the middle of the night like that!’
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Re: Astrid Lindgren on Enid Blyton

Post by Chrissie777 »

pete9012S wrote: One of the most unsavoury characters she created for me was Sniffer's Father.No love for his son in evidence and certainly none for his sick horse at Captain Johnson's riding school.
Although to be fair,Enid manages to make Sniffer's Father come across as extremely unsavoury at the very same time as she depicts Julian at his most superior,pompous and condescending!
Pete, I have to admit that I don't remember the title of the FF book that you refered to.
It must be one of the few Famous Fives that I always skip reading when I reread them (maybe "Mystery Moor"?).
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Re: Astrid Lindgren on Enid Blyton

Post by pete9012S »

Image

Yes Chrissie,you're correct it's Mystery Moor.
I have skipped reading that book too for over forty years as I never liked 'Henry' at all.

When I read it now it's great because it's so fresh and not re-read as many times as all the other Famous Five stories for me.

Age has also softened me slightly towards Henry.I suppose she wasn't all that bad really - just too like George for George's liking! :D
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Re: Astrid Lindgren on Enid Blyton

Post by Anita Bensoussane »

In my opinion, Tim's comment sums things up nicely:
timv wrote:(a) Enid was really just using slightly cliched 'types' of people, as she did in various stories, without any intent to be 'superior' (b) the wandering life of a 'traveller' outside mainstream society was seen as exotic, especially in suburban SE London where Enid grew up, and Enid showed its romance as well as its 'underside' sporadic connection with crime.
Let's not forget that Enid Blyton has Julian remark in Five Have a Wonderful Time (referring to the people belonging to the fair) that he doesn't like the idea of "us-folk and you-folk." He adds, "There's a lot of that kind of feeling about these days, and it's so silly. We're all the same under the skin."
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Re: Astrid Lindgren on Enid Blyton

Post by Chrissie777 »

pete9012S wrote:When I read it now it's great because it's so fresh and not re-read as many times as all the other Famous Five stories for me. Age has also softened me slightly towards Henry.I suppose she wasn't all that bad really - just too like George for George's liking! :D
Maybe I should give it another try.
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Re: Astrid Lindgren on Enid Blyton

Post by Rob Houghton »

Anita Bensoussane wrote:In my opinion, Tim's comment sums things up nicely:
timv wrote:(a) Enid was really just using slightly cliched 'types' of people, as she did in various stories, without any intent to be 'superior' (b) the wandering life of a 'traveller' outside mainstream society was seen as exotic, especially in suburban SE London where Enid grew up, and Enid showed its romance as well as its 'underside' sporadic connection with crime.
Let's not forget that Enid Blyton has Julian remark in Five Have a Wonderful Time (referring to the people belonging to the fair) that he doesn't like the idea of "us-folk and you-folk." He adds, "There's a lot of that kind of feeling about these days, and it's so silly. We're all the same under the skin."
This is so true - and was a great example of Enid bucking the trend. Not many people choose to find quotes from Enid that do this!

:-)

I think sometimes we have far too 'clean' a view of travellers and gypsies these days. Don't forget, these used to be a people that travelled around at a time when there was no health service, no benefits to speak of, no schooling for travellers etc. Many travellers and fair workers did rely on 'other jobs' to make extra money and many of them did have to delve into the underworld of crime in order to survive.

Even when I was small, a spate of garage and shed break-ins always accompanied the arrival of travellers on the recreation ground just along the canal from my house. In Birmingham city centre there were always gypsies selling 'lucky heather' even just a few short years ago, who would force the heather into your face and tell you not to turn away your good luck but to buy their heather. We actually have some home made gypsy clothes pegs, which were sold door to door when my nan was young. It's a fact that people were always suspicious of gypsies - and there must have been a reason for this.

At the same time, gypsies were viewed as romantic operetta characters who danced around fires, played violins and tambourines and were well versed in healing and herbal remedies. When I was a child I was always excited by the thought of gypsies - gypsies were clean, healthy, romantic, brightly dressed and always singing - they were positive figures. When we began being told to call these romantic figures 'travellers' that romantic image sadly disappeared.

So - good for Enid to offer this alternative point of view during a time when gypsies and travellers were all looked upon with suspicion. :-)
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Re: Astrid Lindgren on Enid Blyton

Post by Rob Houghton »

Mystery Moor is probably the Famous Five I have read the most. I've always loved it and consider it to be one of the best in the series! :-) I think I'm the only person on here who actually enjoys the rivalry between George and Henry - I always feel that was a stroke of genius on Enid's part, but I know most people don't agree! I also find it very interesting regards following the patrins, and the back story about the feud. Great stuff!
'Oh voice of Spring of Youth
hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

(E. Blyton, Sunday Times, 1951)



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Re: Astrid Lindgren on Enid Blyton

Post by Chrissie777 »

I am through with another biography on Astrid Lindren.
It's called "Astrid Lindgren" (Swedish title "Astrids bilder") by Jacob Forsell, published in 2006. It's a picture biography.
On page 157 it states that Lindgren was actually responsible for the FF series to be translated into Swedish, because she bought the rights.
As this book has no name index, I found out about it later when I was finishing reading.
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Re: Astrid Lindgren on Enid Blyton

Post by walter raleigh »

Anita Bensoussane wrote: Let's not forget that Enid Blyton has Julian remark in Five Have a Wonderful Time (referring to the people belonging to the fair) that he doesn't like the idea of "us-folk and you-folk." He adds, "There's a lot of that kind of feeling about these days, and it's so silly. We're all the same under the skin."
That's one of my very favourite Blyton lines from one of my favourite of her books. It really does give the lie to those who say all of Enid's work is racist.
"Stuck in a state of permanent pre-pubescence like poor Julian in the Famous Five!"

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Re: Astrid Lindgren on Enid Blyton

Post by Chrissie777 »

Great post, Walter. Thank you!
I forgot about this remark of Julian, must admit that I haven't read FHAWT for years. :oops:
For me EB never was a racist or chauvinist (in the way she portrayed Anne and Lucy-Ann) anyway. She just said in her books what many people thought way back in the 1940's and 1950's. You cannot read books from 60 or 50 years ago and expect them to be politically correct. And I rather read them in the original version than a modernized version from publishers worried about longtime bestsellers (and that's what the FF are!) being politically correct.
It was exactly the same with German children's books in the 1930's and 1940's (thank God by 1946 or 1947 the US re-educated the Germans and introduced them to the idea of democracy).

Astrid Lindgren is a totally different deal. She always was a free spirit (something I also think of EB), even in her marriage.
Compared with Germany, Lindgren was born in a free/independent country which wasn't involved in any war in 120+ years (probably longer than that...she stated it somewhere in her WW II journals) and their people were not objected 12 years to political propaganda day after day after day like the Germans were. So Swedish people were able to develop in a free way without political obstacles which of course had a very positive effect on her books.

Still, I prefer EB over Astrid Lindgren (with the exception of "Kalle Blomquist" who also had three thrilling adventures without any magic included), simply because EB already wrote & published years before Lindgren even started writing "Pippi Long Stocking" which was published in the mid 1940's.
I simply miss the castles, beautifully described British coastline, baddies, hidden treasures, underground passages etc in Lindgren's books.

Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy reading some books of Lindgren (I can think of at least 7 books that I re-read many times), her children's books are a very easy and pleasant read. Lindgren has without any doubt a great writing style, but later when she included more and more magic and wrote historical books (Ronja Raeubertochter) I lost interest and stopped reading her new books.
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