The Enid Blyton Society

Moonraker wrote:I hadn't realised that the word idiot had become unacceptable. It is a word I often use about people - much in the same way as you would say twit. What would you now call a stupid person? Or is stupid now unacceptable. There won't be much left to call people soon if the PC brigade has its way.

To be fair, I don't think that it is the word 'idiot' that is offensive or outdated, but its use as a term for genuine mental incapacity. I'm often an idiot, and proud to be so.

Yes, when I look it up in the dictionary (Oxford), the current meaning of "idiot" is "a stupid person", but it also gives the archaic meaning of "a person of low intelligence". That would have been when it was a common term for people with intellectual disabilities - which naturally isn't an acceptable use of the word nowadays.

Katharine wrote:
I haven't read the book, so don't know what happens in, but the above comment reminded me of part of the Who Do You Think You Are? I watched last week. Some of Brian Blessed's relations had been admitted to a Poorhouse. One of them was aged 14. Underneath her entry were the words 'an idiot'. It really made me gasp when they read that out. Sometimes I hate the modern world and it's up to date terminology, and long for 'the good old days'. However, whenever I come across expressions like that, I'm happy that some words are no longer acceptable. As someone on the program said, nowadays she'd probably have been classed as having learning difficulties, and hopefully in today's society she'd be given help to reach her full potential. Somehow I doubt she'd have been shown any compassion or understanding a century or two ago.

In the context that idiot was used in this example, I would agree that it's highly offensive. I'd rather the PC society we have now than the kind of words and things you could say and get away with a few decades/century's ago.

burlingtonbertram wrote:

Moonraker wrote:I hadn't realised that the word idiot had become unacceptable. It is a word I often use about people - much in the same way as you would say twit. What would you now call a stupid person? Or is stupid now unacceptable. There won't be much left to call people soon if the PC brigade has its way.

To be fair, I don't think that it is the word 'idiot' that is offensive or outdated, but its use as a term for genuine mental incapacity. I'm often an idiot, and proud to be so.

Yes, I'd agree with that. I use the word myself, but not to describe someone with a genuine disability. I think the important thing is to differentiate between someone who has an intellectual disability and someone who behaves 'like an idiot'. I think I used the word quite recently when someone was driving right on my tail in a 30mph area, presumably trying to get me to break the speed limit. I suppose I was probably using the word incorrectly.

Sounds like a very legitimate idiot to me!

I'm sure drivers treat me differently depending on which car I'm driving. My car is over 20 years old, and is small with a small engine. My husband's car is only about 10 years old, and has a medium sized engine, and is a typical family sized car. I definitely feel that some other road users overtake in dangerous places, drive on my tail etc. if I'm in my own car. As I don't drive any slower or faster in either car I can't see any logical reason why people should overtake me more when I'm in my little car.

Probably, Katharine. I drive a relatively small car too (Peugeot 206), and also can't help noticing that it's nearly always those in large, flashy cars who insist on overtaking me, even when I'm doing the speed limit!

Katharine wrote:I use the word myself, but not to describe someone with a genuine disability. I think the important thing is to differentiate between someone who has an intellectual disability and someone who behaves 'like an idiot'.

At the time of the poorhouse document, 'idiot' was probably still used as a medical term - along with 'imbecile' and 'moron'. They referred to specific degrees of mental disability.

Deej wrote:In the context that idiot was used in this example, I would agree that it's highly offensive. I'd rather the PC society we have now than the kind of words and things you could say and get away with a few decades/century's ago.

Offensive? But is it? We tell people that Enid's writings should be read in the context of the time in which they were written.The term idiot, as Anita suggests, was a bone fide medical term back then. I can't see anything offensive in the term (used in the time it was written) at all. In fact, it gives a very strong flavour of the times of those eras. We dress everything up today, seemingly thinking that to use certain terms cause offence. Parkinson's Disease has now lost the word disease. The same with Alzheimer's. They are diseases, what is wrong in calling them so? It is good that we no longer to refer to cripples, spastics etc. Mental health has changed even more. Of course, so much for the better in many ways. It would be unthinkable to talk seriously of lunatics, asylums, madhouses and so on. However, calling patients clients and even hospitals aren't called hospitals in some areas. Our local psychiatric hospital (I probably shouldn't even call it that today) used to be called Old Manor Hospital. Today it is just called Fountain Way. We are told, and I agree, that mental health issues should be treated similarly to physical health problems. Why then, are these name changes being made? Or am I mad to even ask?

I found it interesting last night as I was watching Murdoch Mysteries which is set in Toronto in the late 1800s, they had a young woman who they suspected was a savant. She couldn't speak or really communicate and got very upset if people behaved unpredictably around her. Anyway, the brother said she was "feeble minded," which was presumably a common term for all sorts of mental impairments then. Later the constable said to the detective something along the lines of "I think the correct term nowadays is moron."

So political correctness isn't a new thing and what was correct changes over time.

Words that seem offensive now possibly wouldn't have started out that way. People didn't accept people who were different, either mentally ill, disabled, deformed, and so any name associated with those sorts of people would gain negative connotations over time.

I think that's spot on, Fiona. That makes a lot of sense to me.

Fiona1986 wrote:Words that seem offensive now possibly wouldn't have started out that way. People didn't accept people who were different, either mentally ill, disabled, deformed, and so any name associated with those sorts of people would gain negative connotations over time.

..and then the terms are changed to try and dissociate a condition/impairment with that negativity, which is a good thing to try and do. I suppose the down-side of that is that when an older term is used quite innocently, the person using it gets frowned upon!

As knowledge increases about physical or mental health (as it has massively in the past century), I suppose that terms such as 'idiot' simply become redundant and no longer convey any medical meaning as they are replaced by other terms which refer to specific diagnoses.

Moonraker wrote:Offensive? But is it? We tell people that Enid's writings should be read in the context of the time in which they were written.The term idiot, as Anita suggests, was a bone fide medical term back then. I can't see anything offensive in the term (used in the time it was written) at all. In fact, it gives a very strong flavour of the times of those eras...

I agree that in context it's not at all offensive.

It's rather heart-breaking to think about mental health sufferers back then. Unless they had families or friends to protect them, their lives must have been very miserable indeed.

Interesting observations, Fiona. I tend to agree with what you say. I too have come across the vague term "feeble minded" in vintage books.

I've known quite a few feeble-minded people.

Interesting comments. I didn't mean to spark such a debate. It would seem that my gasp of horror at the word 'idiot' was misplaced, and that the word probably wasn't meant in an offensive way at the time it was written in the workhouse document.

Debates always strike when you least suspect them.