International Women's Day

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Darrell71
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Re: Women's International Day

Post by Darrell71 »

zaidi wrote: But seriously, its just hurtful to see how people discount my view on the pain and struggle women go through.
a. No one discounted your view. Some of the things that Katharine said were interpreted wrongly by you, so any comments regarding that had to be discounted because Katharine didn't say anything like that in the first place.
b. This:
zaidi wrote: Women are expected everywhere, to be like housewives and their husbands don't equally contribute except for financial contribution.
is a generalization. If you feel dreadful is too strong a word, then an 'uncalled for' generalization for sure.

Yes, there are inequalities in the developed countries as well. No one is denying that, contrary to what you seem to think. You say you have done a lot of research and all on it, but that doesn't mean other people are not well informed about such matters. So if they have a different opinion, you should just agree to disagree and not constantly try to make them share your opinion. As Nigel said, (and nearly had his head bitten off by you for it) you probably have different experiences. Everyone does. My experiences are different, yours are different, Katharine's are different, and every person has different experiences in life which influence their views and opinions. The extent and type of variations may depend on the place, culture, and society you grew up in. And mind you, this is NOT 'discriminating against you because you are from Pakistan' or whatever.
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Re: Women's International Day

Post by zaidi »

I must be wrong then, if all of you say so.
Katharine, I am actually sorry , I am just so emotional because I am so sensitive to criticism , that I always feel that the other person is trying to say I am wrong. And being emotional, makes me think emotionally too. And thats why when I have feelings attached to my view points, I cannot properly express what I want to say.
I am glad, that their good men too ,Sarah and Katharine.
I really dont hear, men actually contributing in their homes.
Most women, I know do have a choice, but they make that choice because they say if they don't, who will then care for their babies.
You all are right, that being a mother is a very important role, but sometimes I wonder,
is that the only reason women come to the world, to reproduce and take care of their children?( I know again, this means choice)But how can a women have a choice, if there is noone to lookafter, when she isnt there.
There should be some reason, we come to the world, there should be a passion and an ambition for life.

Maybe this is more in my country, but most women I've heard say, their husbands are so full of their professional life that they don't help a lot or contribute in childcare and housework( even after just a 9 to 5job).
My father would work in for more than 18 hours at times, and he would still help out many times in home, despite constant travel and exposure to heat.

Since, I myself have helped out my mom and sacrificed in my own way( I found it to be a sacrifice, that why I kept on mentioning this word) at home with a baby sister. I myself, my mum(a teacher) and many others find it a real hell to look after babies and do all the housework. No one really likes it, its just a compulsion. But though its a part of life, and it might be joyful to have your own children and a family, I feel that men should definitely value how much of an effort it is to stay back at home too as much as it is, to provide financially at times. And help around for at least 30% to 40% in the housework and babysitting.

And yes,Sarah you are right about it being difficult to provide financially which is certainly true. I really discounted that.
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Re: Women's International Day

Post by Darrell71 »

I knew a long reply was coming as soon as I saw that you had checked EBS again! :lol:
zaidi wrote: Maybe this is more in my country, but most women I've heard say, their husbands are so full of their professional life that they don't help a lot or contribute in childcare and housework( even after just a 9 to 5job).
What sort of women? Where are they from? What sections in society do they occupy? A lot of information about their background and present state contributes to their feelings on this issue, Zainab.
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Re: Women's International Day

Post by Machupicchu14 »

Happy International Women's Day!!! :D
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(все, что я понимаю, я понимаю только потому, что люблю)
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Re: Women's International Day

Post by Courtenay »

And to you too, María Esther and everyone! :D
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Re: Women's International Day

Post by Julie2owlsdene »

I didn't even know it was until I saw it on the news!

8)
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Re: Women's International Day

Post by Rob Houghton »

As I said on facebook - Enid is a great example of what women are capable of - and in an era when generally men earned the living and women were housewives. I think many underestimate what she did - a business woman, who oversaw every aspect of her writing and understood the power of merchandising, creating , as people have suggested, a 'brand' before brands were common. All this in a time long before many women had even managed to get out of the kitchen. Enid is a great pioneer for women's rights - and I believe (though I know many don't!) that she created strong female characters such as Darrel Rivers and George as a way to show young girls that they could be leaders rather than followers. 8)
'Oh voice of Spring of Youth
hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

(E. Blyton, Sunday Times, 1951)



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Re: Women's International Day

Post by Katharine »

An interesting comment Rob. I'm not sure I entirely agree with it though. I too had thought that Enid broke the mould when it came to writing about independent females, but recently I've been reading school girl stories from the 1930s, and they are full of strong girls. Females having their own planes and being able to fix them when they go wrong is a favourite theme. Then there are plenty of cases when girls climb down cliffs and rescue people = not a male in sight.

So I'm wondering why Enid seems to have stirred up so much opinion about her female characters. Firstly, is it because in the case of the Famous Five, they were a mixed sex group - the stories I've recently read mostly feature either a lone female or group of girls working together without the help of males, perhaps the difference with the FF was that she was writing for both sexes although Arthur Ransome's females seemed to be a pretty independent lot. Secondly, was there a slight reversal in the way women were seen post war? Perhaps there was a feeling that after the men had been away fighting that they wanted to come home and be fussed over by 'the little woman'?
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Re: Women's International Day

Post by Rob Houghton »

It's probably because Enid's stories are the only ones still published today - which is sort of what i meant - they give us proof that such attitudes existed many more years ago than some people choose to acknowledge. I agree that other girl heroes were just as daring and more so, in other books of the era, and even before Enid Blyton came along.

The difference - in my opinion - was that Enid wrote for both boys and girls, whereas many earlier writers were writing just for a female audience. Because of this, Enid's brave and clever female characters got greater exposure. Its not so daring to write books for girls with strong female characters...you know you'll be aiming the stories and characters at an appreciative audience - but including them in books boys would read was fairly 'brave' in an era when many boys truly believed they were better than girls. In fact, boys being 'better' at some things than girls was an attitude that still persisted in my school in the 1970's! :roll:

I know such stories had been written before - I'm a massive fan of E Nesbit and I've also read a few others - but the difference with Enid's books is that they are still around today and she is pretty much the only author to have transcended the generations from less enlightened days through to 2017.

I think there was that slight reversal after the war...in the 1920's and 30's I think there was that feeling that 'some women' were different - there was Amelia Earhart etc - pioneering women, which probably inspired the writers you were talking about. These women, however, were mainly well-to-do women and not the types who lived in back to back houses and had several children year after year. Most lower class women were still oppressed baby-making machines, who might have worked, but generally gave that work up once they were having babies.

WW 2 gave the working-class women more independence while their men were away, and they took many traditionally male jobs. I think many men resented this when they came home after the war - and also, women were expected by bosses and the government to go back to the domestic roles they had played before the war, and many didn't want to.
'Oh voice of Spring of Youth
hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

(E. Blyton, Sunday Times, 1951)



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Re: Women's International Day

Post by Fiona1986 »

I agree with your points, Rob. Enid was certainly pushing the boundaries for girls in books - and the fact she was writing for a male and female audience is important there.

I saw a video on Facebook yesterday where a mum and daughter looked at a large bookshelf. First they removed books with no boy characters (there were 2 or 3). Then they removed the books without any girl (rather a lot), then books where girls didn't speak (again rather a lot), then after removing books where girls 'didn't have any aspirations' which they then referred to as 'princess books' they were left with a measly collection.

While I think there can be problems with gender equality in books this video rather left me feeling like their bookshelf just had a lousy collection of books on it! Had it had even a small selection of Blyton, E Nesbit, Noel Streatfeild, Jacqueline Wilson, JK Rowling... etc on it there would be tons of books left at the end of the experiment!
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Re: Women's International Day

Post by Rob Houghton »

Fiona1986 wrote:While I think there can be problems with gender equality in books this video rather left me feeling like their bookshelf just had a lousy collection of books on it! Had it had even a small selection of Blyton, E Nesbit, Noel Streatfeild, Jacqueline Wilson, JK Rowling... etc on it there would be tons of books left at the end of the experiment!
that's a great point! I was actually quite shocked to hear there are actually books around with girl characters who don't speak! I don't think I've ever read a book like that!

(girls not speaking seems a bit unlikely anyway!!! :twisted: )
'Oh voice of Spring of Youth
hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

(E. Blyton, Sunday Times, 1951)



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Re: Women's International Day

Post by Fiona1986 »

There was also a video from a bookshop which turned all books by men around so the pages faced into the room. They did it as a public art installation and event with customers invited to help. They were also "shocked" at the blank shelves when they were done. Erm, it's YOUR bookshop therefore if YOU buy in predominantly male author's books how can you then be shocked by the result? There are so many brilliant current female authors that I think this bookshop entirely missed the point and are contributing to the problem by not stocking enough female authors.
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"Listen to its terrible groans and creaks!" yelled Julian, almost beside himself with impatience.


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Re: Women's International Day

Post by Rob Houghton »

I'm really surprised by that, as I tend to think there are more female authors than male - in both children's and adult's...so as you say - it looks as if the bookshop in question was buying more male writers than female. 8)
'Oh voice of Spring of Youth
hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

(E. Blyton, Sunday Times, 1951)



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Re: Women's International Day

Post by Courtenay »

Fiona1986 wrote: While I think there can be problems with gender equality in books this video rather left me feeling like their bookshelf just had a lousy collection of books on it! Had it had even a small selection of Blyton, E Nesbit, Noel Streatfeild, Jacqueline Wilson, JK Rowling... etc on it there would be tons of books left at the end of the experiment!
Good point!
Fiona1986 wrote:There was also a video from a bookshop which turned all books by men around so the pages faced into the room. They did it as a public art installation and event with customers invited to help. They were also "shocked" at the blank shelves when they were done. Erm, it's YOUR bookshop therefore if YOU buy in predominantly male author's books how can you then be shocked by the result? There are so many brilliant current female authors that I think this bookshop entirely missed the point and are contributing to the problem by not stocking enough female authors.
Another good point. It's not as if great female authors have only arisen en masse in the past few decades, either — there have been plenty over the past couple of hundred years... :roll:
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Re: Women's International Day

Post by Fiona1986 »

Ugh I meant male authors' books . But I'm glad you agree.
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"Listen to its terrible groans and creaks!" yelled Julian, almost beside himself with impatience.


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