International Women's Day

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Re: Women's International Day

Post by Anita Bensoussane »

I'm sure no one meant to upset anyone else, Zainab. It's a shame to see this thread getting personal as the discussion has been friendly for the most part, so let's keep it that way.
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Re: Women's International Day

Post by Katharine »

zaidi wrote: Katherine and you dont make up the whole of England, or neither do all the men that Katherine knows or you do, represent the whole male population that exists in England.
I'm sorry Anita if you think this is being personal, but I'd really like clarification on this point from Zaidi. I've re-read all my comments, and I honestly can't see anywhere that I suggested that I was speaking on behalf of the whole of England or all the men I know. If she can point out where I said that, then I'll happily re-phrase it, or try and explain what I meant, because I certainly never intended to give that impression.
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Re: Women's International Day

Post by Anita Bensoussane »

I must admit I can't see it either, Katharine.

I think you've probably misunderstood something, Zainab. You stated before that Katharine said, "men cannot lookafter babies, because babies for the first six month are on breastfeed." Katharine confirmed that what she actually said was, "it would be pretty difficult for men to do the main part of looking after a baby," which is "totally different to saying they can't help out around the house or babysit."

It's likely that a similar misunderstanding has occurred again.

As for claiming that Nigel has discriminated against you, surely that's an exaggeration. He wasn't discounting your views - he was just saying that your experience may have been different.

Did anybody here mark the day in any way, e.g. with celebrations or campaigns or charity work? I never hear anyone mention International Women's Day in my day to day life - or International Men's Day either.
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Re: Women's International Day

Post by Katharine »

Thanks Anita,

I know there was going to be an interfaith church service locally, as it was mentioned in my parish's newsletter. There has been one held in this area for quite a number of years. I don't know of anyone who has ever been to any of them though, but I presume they must be well attended or they wouldn't hold them.

Although they are organised by women, it did say that men were welcome too. I don't know of any other local events, but I don't get a local newspaper, and rarely see the local news programmes, so there may well have been.
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Re: Women's International Day

Post by Moonraker »

I have made my points in a courteous, and I thought, sensible manner. I certainly cannot see how I was "discriminating Zaidi" because she lives in Pakistan. To suggest that different cultures have different customs hardly seems discriminatory. However, rudeness is inexcusable in any culture.
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Re: Women's International Day

Post by Darrell71 »

People, please just stop. This thread is getting a bit weird and some people are getting worked up for no reason.
Zaidi, please don't stuff words into other people's mouth, and re read everyone's posts before commenting on them.
What Nigel said was perfectly sensible IMHO. Obviously, if you have grown up in a different area, your experiences are different, irrespective of area. He's not 'discriminating'. Just be a tad bit more careful about the conclusions you draw, that's all. :)
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Re: Women's International Day

Post by zaidi »

My post might have been a bit heated up, and it might have felt like an exaggeration on my part.
But seriously, its just hurtful to see how people discount my view on the pain and struggle women go through.
I am so hurt, all I was talking about is women empowerment, yet the others made me feel like I said the opposite. If you havent gone through it, or you dont see it doesnt mean it isnt there!

I am sorry Katherine, but your consistency , to say that domestic work and childcare isnot much of a deal or struggle women go through, felt like you spoke on' behalf of the whole of England'.

Words like" Dreadful Generalization", just hit me hard. Women are expected everywhere, to be like housewives and their husbands don't equally contribute except for financial contribution and sometimes women cannot stand on their own ,because of financial dependence.

I am sorry Nigel , but when you said " it must seem more like a women's job in Pakistan" , it felt like, I came from Ironage. Because I am not talking about my experience,its from around the world.
If I had to talk about my country, you would hear much much more than what I said.
Most of you forget, that this primitive thinking was present in the west too and it isnot that far behind. Enid Blyton's mother, expected her daughter,to do all the housework and gave lot more freedom to her boys,and now the mindset has changed but it hasn't died yet.


As a protected girl both in school and my home, I never realized gender inequality existed. But when I started going out, all the pressure of being a girl crashed on me.
I had typical conversations,with educated women who like Katherine, had sacrificed and confined themselves completely to their homes and families. Which is when the whole thing dawned on me, about women sacrificing.
And from then on, I have been studying stories and research and all the stuff about women, which made me generalize men's nature all over the world.
So what I was trying emphasize is, that some women cannot grow whichever place there in, because many times there just so stuck with their homes. ( housework and childcare) that they nearly forget that they have life for themselves and many men dont realise that either.
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Re: Women's International Day

Post by Katharine »

Zaidi, for some reason you again quoted me as saying something I didn't ie, ' but your consistency , to say that domestic work and childcare isnot much of a deal or struggle women go through'. I'm pretty certain I never said that, and as Anita has already pointed out, I didn't say anything about speaking for England either. So please, if you want to direct a comment directly to me, please put the exact quotes, so that I can see what you are referring to.

Also, I feel it is inappropriate of you to state 'women who like Katherine, had sacrificed and confined themselves completely to their homes. Apart from the fact that once again you've spelled my name incorrectly, I had a choice as to whether I stayed at home with my children, and I was glad that I had the opportunity to do so. I would have hated to have to go out to work and leave the children to be cared for by someone else - whether that was my husband or not. I realise that many women throughout the world don't have that choice, but I doubt that I'm the only women in the entire world that has enjoyed being a full-time carer for her children.

I do accept that my use of the words " Dreadful Generalization" were not the best ones I could have chosen. I stand by my opinion that your comment which they hardly do was a generalisation, but if I were typing my comment again, I would not use the word 'dreadful'. Instead I would say something along the lines that I felt the comment was unfair to a lot of men, as to me the words 'they hardly do' suggests that the majority of men don't care about their homes. However at the end of the day, that is more a matter of personal opinion, and I would hope that free thinking we are both entitle to have different views on that subject.
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Re: Women's International Day

Post by Spitfire »

zaidi wrote:Most of you forget, that this primitive thinking was present in the west too and it isnot that far behind. Enid Blyton's mother, expected her daughter,to do all the housework and gave lot more freedom to her boys,and now the mindset has changed but it hasn't died yet.
Zaidi, it’s certainly true that women’s emancipation in the West is of recent date, and also true that we still face unfair treatment. For example, it has been in the news quite a bit recently in Britain that women are frequently paid less than men for doing the same job – a clear example of unjust discrimination. But I don't think it's true that anybody posting on this thread has forgotten that women did not always have the choice and fair treatment that we do have now.
zaidi wrote:I had typical conversations,with educated women who like Katherine, had sacrificed and confined themselves completely to their homes and families. Which is when the whole thing dawned on me, about women sacrificing.
And from then on, I have been studying stories and research and all the stuff about women, which made me generalize men's nature all over the world.
So what I was trying emphasize is, that some women cannot grow whichever place there in, because many times there just so stuck with their homes. ( housework and childcare) that they nearly forget that they have life for themselves and many men dont realise that either.
When talking about 'sacrificing' like this, I think it's necessary to differentiate between a person who makes a free choice to live in service to others, and those who simply have no choice. The first is a powerful act of love; the second sounds like slavery!

In truth, anybody who is married (male or female) or anybody who is a parent, 'sacrifices' themselves regularly for their spouse or children, and that's a normal aspect of the relationship. It's impossible have a successful marriage or be a good parent and be consistently selfish. The majority of parents that I know pour everything into their families. Sacrificial love is a POWERFUL thing - it enables, not disables. It's an honourable way of life, not a degrading one. I'm not a mother, but if I were I would do everything I could to build up, encourage and support my children, and my best example would be my own wonderful Mum who did the exact same thing for me.

I don't agree that women 'sacrifice' themselves more than men. I have many male colleagues, a husband, two brothers, a father and many male cousins/neighbours/acquaintances... and in my experience most men I know work just as hard as their wives - some of whom work part or full time, and some of whom stay at home full-time.
zaidi wrote: Providing financially, isnt much of a deal , i dont know why people make such a big fuss. In todays world, when women work as well. It isn't as big of a thing, to work full time.
I have to disagree here too (sorry! :) ). The working world can be a pretty hostile environment sometimes, and having a family to provide for puts so much more pressure on the main breadwinner. Business competition, contracts ending, funding stopped, redundancy, self-esteem issues, personality clashes, undue pressure to take on extra tasks and hours, deadlines, lack of understanding over illness or personal issues, gender discrimination, age discrimination.... the list is endless. Of course, there are loads of positives too - but sometimes work is very stressful!
Last edited by Spitfire on 22 Mar 2016, 10:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Women's International Day

Post by Katharine »

Sarah, a fantastic post, you've pretty much said everything that I've thought and wanted to say, but couldn't find the right words. I especially liked the comments you make about being a mother, as it's easy for me to be 'slushy' over the positives, because I am one; so it's reassuring to know that a women who doesn't have children can also see that for caring for children can be a rewarding experience.

I also liked your comments about the pressures on the 'breadwinner' of the family. For over 20 years now we've relied on my husband to feed us, clothe us, and keep a roof over our heads. Of course this was a joint decision we made when we started our family, but during that time we've been faced with a few financial tight spots and at times he's not been happy at work. I'm pretty certain that at times he'd have been only too happy to swap places with me.

I was interested to see your comment about British women being paid less for the same job, do you know if there's a link to that article, as I must have missed it? I'm not doubting the story, it's just not something I've personally come across in my life, probably because the first company I worked for had a very open pay structure, and the job I do now doesn't have any men doing the same as myself. So I'd be interested to know if there is any kind of trend to the differences in pay scales.
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Re: Women's International Day

Post by Anita Bensoussane »

I think you come to the heart of the matter, Katharine, when you say, "I had a choice as to whether I stayed at home with my children, and I was glad that I had the opportunity to do so." It's all about being given choice and opportunity. People are more likely to feel unfulfilled, demoralised or even resentful if they find themselves following a path which was forced upon them through pressure from family and society - or a path which they took simply because a lack of education and skills meant that other routes in life were blocked to them. This applies to the world of work as well as to raising a family, e.g being pressured into taking over the family business when you'd actually have preferred to be a teacher, scientist, farmer or whatever. If it's your choice to have children and stay at home to care for them, you'll find it fulfilling. But it should be a choice, and not the only available option.
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Re: Women's International Day

Post by Spitfire »

Thanks Katharine. I honestly think that bringing up children is one of the most crucial jobs in the world, and although undoubtedly hard work, it must be so very rewarding (hopefully my Mum thinks so anyway!). :)

Regarding the gender pay gap, here are a couple of BBC links - the story I had in mind was the most recent one:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35553573" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and one from last year: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34855056" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm not sure how I feel about salaries being published. In my experience it's never a good idea for colleagues to know what each other are earning.
zaidi wrote: My focus, was on developed countries which though provide equal status and opportunities to women,but they still struggle through huge amount of dominance sometimes naturally and many times because of certain conditions and problems.
Most of us may not suffer through it, but when things get advanced difficulty further enhances, that is the case with women empowerment.
Did you have any particular situations in mind Zaidi? Apart from the gender pay-gap already mentioned, I can't think of any examples where (in this country) we face particular struggles due to our gender. Also, I'm not sure what you mean in your last sentence.
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Re: Women's International Day

Post by Katharine »

Thanks for the links Sarah. I got a bit bogged down with all the facts and figures, but I did notice that although men's pay is higher for full-time workers, it's the reverse for those with part-time jobs. I hope that the gap will be closed for both sets of workers.

I'm not sure whether it's good to have salaries published. I also think there needs to be some leeway in what people earn. For example, if someone always leaves the office on the dot of 5.00, should they get the same pay as someone who is prepared to stay behind and get work finished on a regular basis? Or the shop worker that will happily come in at very short notice because someone has phoned in sick, whereas another staff member might never cover. Of course it might not be the person's fault that they have to leave on time, or can't cover, but at the end of the day, one person might do the bare minimum and another one 'go the extra mile'.

I also can see problems with trying to rush through equal pay. I'm not excusing men getting paid more, but if for example they've been with a company for a long time, and therefore were paid more when the rules weren't as strict, should they then have to have a pay freeze for several years until their female colleagues catch them up, and in the process possibly suffer financial difficulties as the cost of living will have increased, or should the women just get a massive pay rise to bring them in line with the men? The latter option seems best on the face of it, but if a company has to keep shareholders happy that's going to be hard, or it may be a retail company which will possibly have to raise it's prices sharply to cover their extra outgoings.

Anita, yes, absolutely, it was my choice, and I did say in an earlier post that I felt choice was important for everyone, (Maybe instead of having International Men or Women's Days the world should just concentrate on fairness and justice for everyone?).
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Re: Women's International Day

Post by Anita Bensoussane »

I chose to look after my children at home too as I wanted to breastfeed them, wean them on home-made food, do activities with them, teach them things and help them develop. It wasn't a sacrifice.
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Re: Women's International Day

Post by Spitfire »

The word ‘sacrifice’ probably isn’t the best one to use in connection with stay-at-home motherhood, or in marriage or parenthood at all, because the relationship doesn’t feel like a sacrifice, and of course nobody wants it to be considered in the light of a martyr! But Zaidi mentioned women ‘sacrificing themselves’ several times in her posts, and I wanted to take that idea and put that in a positive light. I entirely agree with your post which summed up what I was trying to say in a much more balanced way.

I know that if I had children I would want to stay at home with them if I possibly could, especially when the children were very young, and being a mother would be my main focus in life. I wouldn’t consider it a sacrifice either, but a joy and a privilege.
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