English Grammar, Spelling and Vocabulary

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Re: English Grammar, Spelling and Vocabulary

Post by pete9012S »

Always suspected you were a 'one off' or original! :wink: :D
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Re: English Grammar, Spelling and Vocabulary

Post by Anita Bensoussane »

Katharine wrote:I say 'Kathryn', and so does everyone I know apart from a Spanish lady who calls me 'Kath-er-in-. To be really pedantic, if someone wanted to say my name 'correct'y, then it should really be 'Kath-ar-in' as I don't have an 'er' in the middle. I suppose to find the proper way to say any word/name, then we'd need to go back to the origins of the name. So for example with my name, my mother thinks that my version of the name is the original one. If that is true, then pretty much no-one is saying it correctly, only my Spanish friend. :D
Neither the spelling nor the original pronunciation necessarily indicate what is correct. Pronunciation can alter over time, and the spelling doesn't always change to reflect the altered pronunciation. When it comes to names, individual preference may play a part too - e.g. some people who are called "Quentin" pronounce it "Kwen-tin" while others pronounce it "Kwin-tin". You also get Theresa/Teresa pronounced "Tuh-reez-uh" or "Tuh-rayz-uh". And I'm only talking about the English forms of those names, of course. In other countries, they will often be pronounced and spelt differently.
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Re: English Grammar, Spelling and Vocabulary

Post by Daisy »

I pronounce it as "Kath-a-rin... I must remember to drop the 'a' in the middle! ;)
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Re: English Grammar, Spelling and Vocabulary

Post by pete9012S »

I noticed the papers keep referring to Prince William's wife as 'Kate'. I thought I had read once the she much prefers to be addressed as Catherine...
'Call me Catherine', says Kate Middleton as proposal rumours hit fever pitch
"But her family and close friends have always called her Catherine and that's the way she prefers it."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... pitch.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: English Grammar, Spelling and Vocabulary

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Katharine wrote: "Interesting comment about the 'r' in Francis. I always say it that way, and hadn't given it any thought until I met someone with a son called Fran and his mother told me it was short for Francis. She is Irish so pronounces it Fran-cis, so Fran is a logical short form. However as I pronounce it FraRn-cis, then the short form would be FraRn which would probably sound odd."

This is the bit that I don't agree with, Katharine. The suggestion that if it is pronounced Francis (with a long a) then the logical short form would be Fran (with a long a). However, it never is, it's always pronounced with a short a. That doesn't make it illogical. I would also mention that Francis (with a long a) is not strictly pronounced as Frarncis. It's just an approximation - close but not the same. You could argue that Frahncis would be closer, but it would still be an approximation. It merely goes to show the subtleties of pronounciation.

In both the First and Second World Wars, British soldiers going to the Continent were issued with little booklets of French and German phrases. They were told to pronounce "Je ne sais pas" ("I do not know") as Jenny-say-pah, which would make any Frenchman wince. The German phrase "Ich weiss nicht" they were told to pronounce Ish vise nisht! I still have my Dad's booklet.

Incidentally, the origin of Katharine is the (Ancient) Greek name of Aikaterina. The Romans altered it to Katharina in Latin. The French form was Catherine. So which is the truest form?

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Re: English Grammar, Spelling and Vocabulary

Post by Anita Bensoussane »

I knew a Greek family with a little girl called Katerina. They pronounced Katerina as "Gadder-eenah" so it's possible that the "k" and "t" in the original name, Aikaterina, would have been pronounced like "g" and "d".

That doesn't mean that the English name Katharine/Katherine/Kathryn/Catherine (usually pronounced "cath-rin") is wrong. It's just the way the name has developed over here.
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Re: English Grammar, Spelling and Vocabulary

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Yes, but Aikaterina would have been written using the Greek alphabet. So the transliteration probably reflects the way it was pronounced.

Arabic has a sound that is halfway between a G and a K. When the former Libyan dictator first came to power, the English press spelled his name Kadaffi. After a couple of years, they changed it to Gadaffi. Scholars spelt it Qadafi, using the Q (without a U) as the nearest equivalent to that sound. To make matters even more complicated, the cursive letters in Arabic are the consonants, the little marks over the top are the vowels. When it is handwritten, they don't bother about the vowels, they are just understood. So you get regional differences in pronounciation, reflected in differences in transliteration.

Anyone for Esperanto? :lol:

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Re: English Grammar, Spelling and Vocabulary

Post by GloomyGraham »

The last coupla pages have made me understand why i call my sister Cathy ;)
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Re: English Grammar, Spelling and Vocabulary

Post by Rob Houghton »

Domino wrote:With regard to the name Bowie, it's even more confusing when pronounced Boo-ee like Jim Bowie, who gave his name to the bowie knife. (He died at the Alamo.)

Frank Bough always pronounced his name as Boff.
Now I'm really confused, as I've always heard it called a 'Bough-ee knife'- never a 'Boo-ee' knife!! :shock: I didn't know it was officially 'Boo-ee'
Katharine wrote:I say 'Kathryn', and so does everyone I know apart from a Spanish lady who calls me 'Kath-er-in-. To be really pedantic, if someone wanted to say my name 'correct'y, then it should really be 'Kath-ar-in' as I don't have an 'er' in the middle. I suppose to find the proper way to say any word/name, then we'd need to go back to the origins of the name. So for example with my name, my mother thinks that my version of the name is the original one. If that is true, then pretty much no-one is saying it correctly, only my Spanish friend. :D
Thanks Kath-rin! ;-) Actually, yes, I must admit I would more likely say 'Kath- a-rin' like Daisy would rather than 'Kath-er-in'. :-D

When it comes to names, its definitely more about location than anything. For example, take my second name - Houghton. If you are from down south - probably Birmingham southwards - you're likely to call me 'Howton' which is what I'm most often called. Some people pronounce it 'Huffton' and others say 'Hogton'...but actually, as its a northern name (my dad's family originally come from Rochdale area) it should be pronounced Horton. :D 8) :D
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Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

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Re: English Grammar, Spelling and Vocabulary

Post by Katharine »

Domino wrote:Katharine wrote: "Interesting comment about the 'r' in Francis. I always say it that way, and hadn't given it any thought until I met someone with a son called Fran and his mother told me it was short for Francis. She is Irish so pronounces it Fran-cis, so Fran is a logical short form. However as I pronounce it FraRn-cis, then the short form would be FraRn which would probably sound odd."

This is the bit that I don't agree with, Katharine. The suggestion that if it is pronounced Francis (with a long a) then the logical short form would be Fran (with a long a). However, it never is, it's always pronounced with a short a. That doesn't make it illogical. I would also mention that Francis (with a long a) is not strictly pronounced as Frarncis. It's just an approximation - close but not the same. You could argue that Frahncis would be closer, but it would still be an approximation. It merely goes to show the subtleties of pronounciation.
I don't really understand your objection to my comment. The English language is full of words that don't follow 'the rules'. I just thought that was another one of them, as personally I would never have made the association that Fran is short for Francis, because of the way I pronounce the two words. I didn't mean it to be an 'argument'. :?
GloomyGraham wrote:The last coupla pages have made me understand why i call my sister Cathy ;)
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

It would certainly be simpler for me if I was called that, but unfortunately I've never been keen on that abbreviation of my name, and would prefer to be called Katie if I was forced to shorten it. Not that it's a major issue these days as for the past 20 odd years I've mostly be called 'Mum(my)' or Mrs....... :wink:
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Re: English Grammar, Spelling and Vocabulary

Post by Anita Bensoussane »

Domino wrote:Yes, but Aikaterina would have been written using the Greek alphabet. So the transliteration probably reflects the way it was pronounced.
Yes - maybe the pronunciation is different in modern Greek, or maybe it differs according to accent or dialect so that Katerina could be more like "Katter-eenah" for some and more like "Gadder-eenah" for others?
Domino wrote:Arabic has a sound that is halfway between a G and a K. When the former Libyan dictator first came to power, the English press spelled his name Kadaffi. After a couple of years, they changed it to Gadaffi. Scholars spelt it Qadafi, using the Q (without a U) as the nearest equivalent to that sound.
That's also why you see "Koran" and "Quran/Qur'an".
Domino wrote:To make matters even more complicated, the cursive letters in Arabic are the consonants, the little marks over the top are the vowels. When it is handwritten, they don't bother about the vowels, they are just understood. So you get regional differences in pronounciation, reflected in differences in transliteration.
The pronunciation of vowels isn't particularly important in many Arabic words - unlike in English. As you imply, Dave, when you say that the vowels are often (though not always) "just understood" in written Arabic, the consonants are key. People called Mohammed may have their names written in many ways in English, e.g. Mohammed, Mohammad, Muhammed or Muhammad. It doesn't really matter. Even the double m in the middle is simply a case of following English conventions. The sounds which are important in understanding the word are mhmd.
Domino wrote:Anyone for Esperanto? :lol:
I tried learning Esperanto for six months or so when I was in my teens. It was a correspondence course which isn't the ideal way to learn a language, but the logical structure makes it quite easy to master and I progressed fairly well. However, I was then invited to conversation classes at someone's house and everyone else there was decades older. I was shy and felt really out of place. As other things were starting to get in the way anyway, I'm afraid I gave it up. Esperanto is based very much on European languages so it wouldn't be as easy for someone from a non-European background even though it has very consistent rules.

We used to have someone on the forums who spoke Esperanto but it's a long time since he posted.
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Re: English Grammar, Spelling and Vocabulary

Post by Courtenay »

:lol: Or just try learning Cornish, which — since it was revived over 100 years ago after having been virtually dead for more than a century before that, and had never had a standardised spelling system even in its heyday — today has at least five existing spelling systems (even the newish "standard" form has variations and is still being revised), not to mention all the endless arguments about which spelling and/or pronunciation is the most accurate! :shock: :roll: :P Mes didhan yw (but it's fun)... :wink:

(And talking of names, if anyone was wondering, mine is pronounced the same as the other spelling — Courtney. Definitely not Cour-te-nay. :twisted: )
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Re: English Grammar, Spelling and Vocabulary

Post by Rob Houghton »

Courtenay wrote:
(And talking of names, if anyone was wondering, mine is pronounced the same as the other spelling — Courtney. Definitely not Cour-te-nay. :twisted: )
:D I must admit, having been told off once about calling you 'Courtney' in an early post (or maybe someone else was told off, can't remember!) I always say 'Court-en-ay' when I spell your name! ;-)
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hearts mad delight,
Sing on, sing on, and when the sun is gone
I'll warm me with your echoes
through the night.'

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Re: English Grammar, Spelling and Vocabulary

Post by pete9012S »

I really wish I had taken latin in school.I would still like to learn it - Just sayin'....
Julius Caesar walks into a bar, sits down and orders a Martinus. The bartender gives him a weird look and says "Don't you mean a Martini?"

Caesar replied, “If I wanted a double I’d have ordered one.” ...
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Re: English Grammar, Spelling and Vocabulary

Post by Domino »

If you ever did learn Latin, Pete, the first shock you will get is that Julius Caesar is not pronounced Joo-lius See-sar but Yu-lius Ki-sar. This is because in 1947 they decided Latin had for centuries been pronounced wrongly and not as the Romans did, so it was changed. Not just that name but the whole language. Trouble is, all the legal phrases and biological terms that use Latin still use the old pronunciation.

If I were you, I'd quit while you're ahead. :wink:

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