Online dating again

Anything goes! Use this forum to get to know each other.
User avatar
70s-child
Posts: 1264
Joined: 04 May 2009, 14:31
Favourite book/series: Adv. series, Barney series, St. Clare's, FFO
Favourite character: Snubby, Loony, Susie, Dinah, Jack Trent, Fatty
Location: New York, NY

Re: Online dating again

Post by 70s-child »

zaidi wrote:
70s-child wrote:Aren't you too young for it anyway? :roll:
She' is just a ten year old how could she date! :lol:
Swatisaid! :?
Moonraker wrote:Don't some girls marry at 12 in India? :|
About a century or so ago, it was certainly quite common, but in the middle of 20th century, the law made it illegal for girls to marry below age 18. After seeing your question I checked the results from a USAID funded survey of India (that is the US counterpart of UK's DFID), and that says the average age at marriage for women in rural India is about 18, while in urban areas it is about 20. But certainly even today there will be some remote places where you may find girls getting married off at 12! :)
Society Member
Yak
Posts: 2940
Joined: 29 Nov 2007, 19:12
Favourite book/series: St Clare's/FFO's.
Favourite character: Fatty/Claudine
Location: UK, the cold part of
Contact:

Re: Online dating again

Post by Yak »

Even here - UK - marriages would often have been provisionally arranged when a child was very young, to cement a political or similar alliance. Few people were lucky enough to get to choose.
http://europeforum.freeforums.net" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
70s-child
Posts: 1264
Joined: 04 May 2009, 14:31
Favourite book/series: Adv. series, Barney series, St. Clare's, FFO
Favourite character: Snubby, Loony, Susie, Dinah, Jack Trent, Fatty
Location: New York, NY

Re: Online dating again

Post by 70s-child »

That would have been more in the 19th century though, isn't it? Incidentally, even today, any number of well-educated, affluent Indians actually choose to have their marriages arranged for them by their families. They would have had all the benefit of meeting potential partners through school, college, and work, and yet they prefer arranged marriages. There is a perception that divorce rates for arranged marriages are lower than if you choose your own spouse. I have no idea how true that is, but certainly that is the perception.

A Jewish-American friend of mine feels that even in the US, most marriages are at least de-facto arranged: when a child is born, the parents will try to move to 'right' neighborhood, so their kid can go to the 'right' school and mix with the 'right' children. These are typically sorted along class or religion. Her own son for instance is in Jewish school, and she lives in a predominantly Jewish neighborhood; and many Catholic friends of mine send their kid to Catholic schools, and so on. That increases the probability that the child will choose a partner from the pool of people who are within their parents' comfort zone.
Society Member
User avatar
Fatty
Posts: 863
Joined: 31 Dec 2004, 10:50
Favourite book/series: Five Find-Outers
Favourite character: Little Bets
Location: Bourne Wood, Peter's End

Re: Online dating again

Post by Fatty »

70s-child wrote:They would have had all the benefit of meeting potential partners through school, college, and work, and yet they prefer arranged marriages. There is a perception that divorce rates for arranged marriages are lower than if you choose your own spouse. I have no idea how true that is, but certainly that is the perception.
I would think this is true, but it's not because of any innate superiority of 'arranged' marriages. Those who opt to have their partners chosen by their parents are less likely to have the courage to walk out if the relationship turns sour. Those trapped in such marriages don't always get support from their families; indeed, they are often actively encouraged to tolerate an abusive partner rather than 'besmirch' the family name. Divorce is still largely considered a social stigma - and of course your chances of snagging another 'arranged' partner goes down drastically.

In another (understandably, locked) thread I chanced upon a reference to the redoubtable Dr Zakir Naik, who has gone on record saying polygamy liberates single/divorced/widowed women because if they are left to themselves they will become "public property". If a medical doctor can hold such palpably offensive views - and, more importantly, feel he's doing a public service by broadcasting such views - it's no wonder that a lot of common folk would feel they'd want to hold on to their miserable arranged marriages*, come what may. And that's a cultural construct, irrespective of the religion they may belong to.

*Edit: I realised this phrase could be ambiguous. I was referring to arranged marriages in which the spouses are miserable; I didn't mean to brand all arranged marriages as 'miserable'.
Last edited by Fatty on 24 Dec 2011, 03:48, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
70s-child
Posts: 1264
Joined: 04 May 2009, 14:31
Favourite book/series: Adv. series, Barney series, St. Clare's, FFO
Favourite character: Snubby, Loony, Susie, Dinah, Jack Trent, Fatty
Location: New York, NY

Re: Online dating again

Post by 70s-child »

Fatty wrote: Those trapped in such marriages don't always get support from their families;
Since I know several people - perfectly rational, sane, intelligent, liberal minded people - who opted for this route, I am afraid I cannot agree to that word. If you go into something knowing all the implications fully well, then you aren't quite 'trapped'. It's a choice, and people are free, in my opinion, to choose their way of life without having to be judged condescendingly by others who think they know better how other people should be leading their lives.
Fatty wrote:indeed, they are often actively encouraged to tolerate an abusive partner rather than 'besmirch' the family name.
Ok, intimate partner violence can occur in any kind of marriage - any class, any race, any religion, any nation - and indeed in any kind of relationship, anywhere in the world - this is simply a fact. Feel free to check me out on this. There is no data to support your view that arranged marriages are necessarily more prone to intimate partner violence compared to other kinds of marriages. With regards to courage to walk out, you will be surprised at the number of women who find it difficult to walk out on an abusive partner. I know of a woman (a friend of a friend) who got murdered - yes murdered- by her partner in Philadelphia, because despite all the advice and counseling she got from her friends and family to walk out on her abusive boyfriend, she continued to persist in that relationship. This is a very complicated issue, and one that defies the sort of easy generalizations that you seem to take comfort in.
Society Member
mynameisdumbnuts
Posts: 453
Joined: 13 Aug 2011, 05:53
Favourite book/series: Malory Towers, Famous Five, Adventure series
Favourite character: George Kirrin, Darrell Rivers, Bets Hilton
Location: USA

Re: Online dating again

Post by mynameisdumbnuts »

70s-child wrote:Since I know several people - perfectly rational, sane, intelligent, liberal minded people - who opted for this route, I am afraid I cannot agree to that word.
Out of curiosity, why did they choose to enter arranged marriages?

My understanding is that if you subscribe to the tradition in which parents choose your spouse, you likely subscribe to the tradition that divorce is unacceptable and are more likely to remain in that marriage even if you don't want to be. Hence the lower divorce rate. It's like how marriages steeped in religion last longer than marriages that aren't -- the more religious you are, the less likely you are to belief divorce is acceptable.

Of course, just because you're married doesn't mean you're happily married regardless of how that marriage came to be.
"Lucy, you want more backbone -– you've got your wishbone where your backbone ought to be!" -- "House-at-the-Corner"
User avatar
Fatty
Posts: 863
Joined: 31 Dec 2004, 10:50
Favourite book/series: Five Find-Outers
Favourite character: Little Bets
Location: Bourne Wood, Peter's End

Re: Online dating again

Post by Fatty »

70s-child wrote:Since I know several people - perfectly rational, sane, intelligent, liberal minded people - who opted for this route, I am afraid I cannot agree to that word. If you go into something knowing all the implications fully well, then you aren't quite 'trapped'. It's a choice, and people are free, in my opinion, to choose their way of life without having to be judged condescendingly by others who think they know better how other people should be leading their lives.
They may be rational, sane, intelligent and liberal people but not quite adults if they still need mama and papa to choose their spouses. That too, frequently based on superstitious hokum like matching horoscopes. But that's just my opinion and I don't expect everybody to agree.

I just realised you're objecting to the word 'trapped'. Sorry -- maybe I wasn't clear enough, but it referred to abusive marriages, not arranged ones. Obviously, if an arranged marriage is a happy one (as many are) there's no question of anyone being trapped in it. Nor does condescension come into the picture. Here's the context (please note the 'if the relationship turns sour' in the preceding sentence):
Fatty wrote:Those who opt to have their partners chosen by their parents are less likely to have the courage to walk out if the relationship turns sour. Those trapped in such marriages...

My reasoning was: if you choose your partner yourself, you are more willing to bear the consequences of a breakup. In India the cliche goes that arranged marriages are not just between two individuals but a bond between two families, and this is a strong reason for an 'arranged' couple to stick together in the face of adversity. A good thing too -- up to a point. But when women don't have much control over whom they get to marry in the first place (and let's not kid ourselves; this is the case over most of the country) they naturally tend to be less confident about standing up for themselves. Arranged marriages are not empowering in that sense, to either party, though men tend to have an easier time of it.

At least these days the chosen couple is often granted an extended term of 'engagement' during which they are permitted to 'date' each other (but not have sex). Thank goodness for small mercies.
70s-child wrote:There is no data to support your view that arranged marriages are necessarily more prone to intimate partner violence compared to other kinds of marriages.
Where did I say that arranged marriages are more prone to domestic violence? While I fully agree with your right to hold a different opinion, misinterpreting me doesn't help your case at all. I was saying that those who agreed to an arranged marriage may not find it as easy to opt out and take charge of their life IF the relationship fails, because of interference from well-meaning parents and nosy relatives. Also, arranged marriages are far more frequently plagued by the bugbear of dowry (yes, I have figures to back this up), so a breakup will involve some tricky financial reshuffling -- in addition to alimony.
70s-child wrote:I know of a woman (a friend of a friend) who got murdered - yes murdered - by her partner in Philadelphia, because despite all the advice and counseling she got from her friends and family
And I personally knew someone who killed herself over domestic/dowry harassment (though it may just as well have been murder). So what? Yes, it was an arranged marriage, but that's beside the point. Isolated cases don't prove anything.

As for my 'easy generalisation', I hoped the qualifiers ('I would think', 'may not', 'often encouraged', 'largely considered') would give you a hint that these are not blanket statements but personal opinions that I have formed about a subject I have a fair knowledge of. Sigh... I think I need to brush up my written communication skills.
User avatar
70s-child
Posts: 1264
Joined: 04 May 2009, 14:31
Favourite book/series: Adv. series, Barney series, St. Clare's, FFO
Favourite character: Snubby, Loony, Susie, Dinah, Jack Trent, Fatty
Location: New York, NY

Re: Online dating again

Post by 70s-child »

mynameisdumbnuts wrote:Out of curiosity, why did they choose to enter arranged marriages?
Well in the few cases that I know, the people were keen on getting married at that particular stage in their lives and they wanted to have children. They were candid about the fact that they hadn't met the 'right person' through the normal route of meeting people at school or work or wherever - either due to a shortage of potential mates in these sectors, or because a person who may have seemed 'right' to them, didn't quite reciprocate those sentiments. They were also equally clear that they weren't going to wait around endlessly for this 'right' person to simply show up at some point in their lives. So they asked their families if they knew anyone in their network who might be interested, and as it happened they met the person they felt they could live with forever, this way. Among the people I know, and as far as I know, no was pressure brought on by their families to marry any particular person - though, I should add, this is not necessarily always the case. Anyway, this is why I don't agree entirely with this notion of Fatty's that these people are not adults. The people I know at least, came to their decision after a lot of careful thought - whether you agree with the decision or not is another matter.

In my great-grandparents' generation, and even in my grandparents' generation, it was normative for Indians to get married to someone without even having seen that person! :lol: They would see their spouse for the first time after they got married! Needless to say these poor chumps had to be married off young so they couldn't protest these mad arrangements. Mercifully those days are now long gone. Most Indian parents I know, are clear that their child must want to marry the person they end up with, even if this person is introduced to the child by their family. That said, even today people do sometimes get pressured into marrying someone their families have selected, because their family basically decides when it is time for their son/daughter to get married, and who they should be marrying. Sometimes these people may even have boyfriends/girlfriends who they would much rather marry, but with whom their parents are not happy. This is when the system is entirely medieval. I would feel sorry for these people, but I also think they have spines of jelly when it comes to standing up for themselves. So my sympathy is limited.
mynameisdumbnuts wrote:My understanding is that if you subscribe to the tradition in which parents choose your spouse, you likely subscribe to the tradition that divorce is unacceptable and are more likely to remain in that marriage even if you don't want to be. Hence the lower divorce rate. It's like how marriages steeped in religion last longer than marriages that aren't -- the more religious you are, the less likely you are to belief divorce is acceptable.
Absolutely! I agree that the low rate of divorce part (if true) would be more likely due to self-selection. If a person is willing to buy out of the notion of romantic-love, and basically marry only because they want to get married (and no other reason), I would imagine they would be more likely to stay put in that marriage.
mynameisdumbnuts wrote:Of course, just because you're married doesn't mean you're happily married regardless of how that marriage came to be.
Again, absolutely! Two of my cousins opted to have an arranged marriage, and while one is perfectly happy, the other one got divorced because she was clear it was not working out. Another cousin of mine got married to a guy she thought she knew really well - they dated for a couple of years before getting married; but that still didn't turn out great. He just seemed to change after marriage. He doesn't respect her at all, restricts her freedom a lot,and insists on ruling almost every aspect of her life (though as far as I know he isn't physically abusive). She is still with him though because she thinks that leaving him would upend both her children's lives. :roll:

Incidentally, I should add that even among the crazy marriages I described used to happen in my great-grandparents' days, I have actually seen these really old couples who were totally devoted to each other, even though their manner of getting married was less than ideal. :D This wasn't always the case of course, but then that is to be expected. :lol:
Fatty wrote: women don't have much control over whom they get to marry in the first place (and let's not kid ourselves; this is the case over most of the country) they naturally tend to be less confident about standing up for themselves. Arranged marriages are not empowering in that sense, to either party, though men tend to have an easier time of it.
I actually agree with you on this! :D But I never claimed arranged marriages are empowering, nor did I say they are superior; merely that some people go in for it voluntarily, and to the extent that it is their choice, I respect them for it, and that it is none of my business really.
Society Member
User avatar
Moonraker
Posts: 22387
Joined: 31 Jan 2005, 19:15
Location: Wiltshire, England
Contact:

Re: Online dating again

Post by Moonraker »

If the couple decides to divorce, can that be arranged? :|
Society Member
User avatar
zaidi
Posts: 799
Joined: 26 Dec 2010, 18:14
Favourite book/series: FamousFive
Favourite character: Nick and Julian
Contact:

Re: Online dating again

Post by zaidi »

70s-child wrote:
zaidi wrote:
70s-child wrote:Aren't you too young for it anyway? :roll:
She' is just a ten year old how could she date! :lol:
Swatisaid! :?
Moonraker wrote:Don't some girls marry at 12 in India? :|
About a century or so ago, it was certainly quite common, but in the middle of 20th century, the law made it illegal for girls to marry below age 18. After seeing your question I checked the results from a USAID funded survey of India (that is the US counterpart of UK's DFID), and that says the average age at marriage for women in rural India is about 18, while in urban areas it is about 20. But certainly even today there will be some remote places where you may find girls getting married off at 12! :)

But in India it still happens in most areas away from Industrial cities. They are uneducated and so happened with my maid. I felt so sorry. :cry:
User avatar
zaidi
Posts: 799
Joined: 26 Dec 2010, 18:14
Favourite book/series: FamousFive
Favourite character: Nick and Julian
Contact:

Re: Online dating again

Post by zaidi »

I think arranged marriages are better at times. Even if you choose someone after your studies you are ought to check him in case of something bad and if your parents say no do not marry for your own betterment.
Here men and women are so busy in to their own couriers that always there parents are worried of their marriages. So here Parents find.
User avatar
70s-child
Posts: 1264
Joined: 04 May 2009, 14:31
Favourite book/series: Adv. series, Barney series, St. Clare's, FFO
Favourite character: Snubby, Loony, Susie, Dinah, Jack Trent, Fatty
Location: New York, NY

Re: Online dating again

Post by 70s-child »

Moonraker wrote:If the couple decides to divorce, can that be arranged? :|
Of course. All you have to do is file for divorce in a court. Incidentally, separation is actually is quite common in rural areas in India. This surprised me when I first found out, because I have always had this impression of India being a hyper-conservative country, with rural areas being even more conservative; but it is true nevertheless. There is enough evidence to support this.
zaidi wrote: But in India it still happens in most areas away from Industrial cities. They are uneducated and so happened with my maid. I felt so sorry. :cry:
Did you mean Pakistan by any chance, Zaidi? I am sufficiently familiar with the geo-political situation in South Asia to know that having an Indian maid working in your home in Pakistan is next to impossible. However, whether it is India or Pakistan, your impression is wrong. The data for India, I have already presented above. Pakistani women's average age at marriage in rural areas is about 19 (which is slightly better than India), and in urban areas it is almost 20. Now whether you believe it or not, I assure you, your government definitely agrees with this statistic.
zaidi wrote:I think arranged marriages are better at times. Even if you choose someone after your studies you are ought to check him in case of something bad and if your parents say no do not marry for your own betterment.
Here men and women are so busy in to their own couriers that always there parents are worried of their marriages. So here Parents find.
I think you meant 'careers'. :)
Society Member
chloe1
Posts: 204
Joined: 16 Sep 2009, 22:00

Re: Online dating again

Post by chloe1 »

I met up with some of my friends from a forum and one of the guys pretended to my bf that I had slept with him. Thankfully bf trusted me but certainly put me off meeting people from online. I also had a few dates from match and ended up with this psycho guy who kept calling me.

However my best friend met her bf online a few years ago and they are the perfect match. So it's not all bad - just for me it seems
User avatar
pete9012S
Posts: 17573
Joined: 24 Jan 2010, 15:32
Favourite book/series: Five On A Treasure Island
Favourite character: Frederick Algernon Trotteville
Location: UK

Re: Online dating again

Post by pete9012S »

Yak wrote:Thanks :) One thing I've always found, and I've met a lot of people from the internet in real life now (most in friends capacities I mean!) is that I've never met anyone irl who was significantly different to my online perception of them. Perhaps I am just lucky that way.
I would agree with Yak's comment regarding everyone I have met in person on this site - except to add that they were possibly even nicer in the flesh than online.

But as Anne Kirrin always said things always taste much nicer outdoors!!! :D :D
" A kind heart always brings its own reward," said Mrs. Lee.
- The Christmas Tree Aeroplane -

Society Member
User avatar
Moonraker
Posts: 22387
Joined: 31 Jan 2005, 19:15
Location: Wiltshire, England
Contact:

Re: Online dating again

Post by Moonraker »

pete9012S wrote: But as Anne Kirrin always said things always taste much nicer outdoors!!! :D :D
Oh, Pete, you are awful. But I like you!
Society Member
Post Reply